The Divorce Podcast

Episode #33: Helen Lederer

September 29, 2021 Helen Lederer Season 1 Episode 33
The Divorce Podcast
Episode #33: Helen Lederer
Show Notes Transcript

Helen Lederer is a comedian, writer and actress who emerged as part of the alternative comedy boom at the beginning of the 1980s. She established a stand-up act at the Comedy Store in London and then won parts in episodes of The Young Ones, which had been written by her Comedy Store contemporaries Ben Elton and Rik Mayall. Among her television credits are the BBC2 sketch series Naked Video and BBC One's Absolutely Fabulous. Helen has been a constant TV presence appearing on a myriad of comedy and panel shows as well as Theatre, taking a role in The Vagina Monologues and Calendar Girls. More recently, Helen launched a new literary prize for comic fiction written by women. Helen is twice married and once divorced and has a daughter from her first marriage. In this episode, Helen and Kate discuss her divorce, being a single mother and how to 'get back on the horse' after breakups and separation.  

Speaker 1:

Welcome to the divorce podcast, a podcast that aims to address divorce, separation and gay parenting here in the UK. Countering the often sensation is way it's portrayed in the media, challenging the status quo and driving for a form . On each episode, I'm joined by experts to discuss divorce, separation, and key parenting from different angles and to give their opinions and to debate them. I'm Kate Daley , a relationship counselor and divorce coach Kay , founder of amicable, the divorce services company and host of his divorce podcast. My guest today is Helen Lederer. Helen is a comedian writer and actress who emerged as part of the alternative comedy boom. At the beginning of the 1980s, she established a standup act at the comedy store in London, and then won parts and episodes of the young ones, which had been written by her comedy store count contemporary as Ben Elton and Rick male among a television credits or the BBC two sketch series naked video and BBC ones . Absolutely fabulous. Helen has been a constant TV presence appearing in a myriad of comedy and panel shows as well as theater taking a role in the vagina, monologues and calendar girls. More recently, hadn't launched a new literary prize for comic fiction written by women. Helen is twice merit and wants divorced and has a daughter from her first marriage. Welcome Helen. It's lovely to see you, Helen. Thank you so much for joining us.

Speaker 2:

Well , it's a , it's an opportunity to delve into the recess of my memory of obviously what wasn't the happiest time of my life, but it was, Ooh, I think 25 years ago longer. So a sort of a lifetime and adult's worth of, of history, but nevertheless, a good thing to, to reflect on, I think,

Speaker 1:

Well, yes, I mean the people that listen to the podcast are interested in people's personal experience of divorce. And so the fact that yours is one from a while ago, rather than one that's quite so raw in itself has his interests . So tell us a little bit about, you know, your personal story. You fell in love, you got pregnant, you got married all in a very short space of time. What then happened? What sort of divorce did you have? Was it amicable or was it acrimonious?

Speaker 2:

I though I was thinking about this because you know, when, when one tries to explain it, it sounds quite good. You know , it doesn't, it, it all happened very quickly and clearly any, most of also are not the happiest things. And then I think even prince Charles said, you know, you don't sort of set out to get divorced. So there's a little bit of a kind of retrospective that go when you make the decision to get married. Mostly people want that to happen above all else. You know, it is a very sort of further tends to be a further wish and a goal. So when that doesn't continue, it is difficult, but probably difficult for both parties. You know, the sad thing is that in my case, you know, both of us, my daughter's father and me, you know, we've been around a lot. I don't think our track record in longterm relationships has particularly vivid. And so you can look back and go, you know, if I knew what I knew now, then one would have done that. Let session talk about it more. But I think when you are new to thinking, it's a failure, there's a lot of panic. So I think experience in relationships is really handy to make a divorce feel, not normal, but okay. You know, it's okay for human beings to have tried and then go, you know what? We will be improved by being separate

Speaker 1:

When you're quite young, when you got divorced, then Helen.

Speaker 2:

Well , um , um , I like when I told my mother that I was pregnant, I said, I said, are you going to have to sit down? Cause you always tell people to sit down when there's a shock, you she'd given up on me, but you see by today's I was 34 when I got pregnant. And I'd been going out with Roger for think about eight months before that. And it was a definite desire for us both to have a child. So that was quick . Then the marriage happened when I was, I think, six months pregnant and then he left when she was one. So I suppose when you sort of weigh all the maths up, it was quite a rapid experience of meeting falling in love. Whatever that means is the late princess started say and going through having one's first child and then becoming a single parent effectively. So it was quite a condensed, you know, so, and in fact, because I'm writing my memoir at the moment, mostly about comedy, I do remember that time as being obviously very sad, but it's the two adults who create that situation together. And I really think that that's something I'm sure in your work, it's not just one person being a believer on one people being the other person, being a victim of that lever.

Speaker 1:

No, there's always a , there's always complex emotional interplay isn't there, but when a breakup happens and sometimes talking to Lucy fraud , another episode, and she was saying that sometimes you're not just breaking up in the moment, but you're bringing some other baggage from previous breakups into that situation. So there's a whole massive stuff going on, I guess, for you given the huge life changes you'd been through then having just had a baby and become parents. It must've been even more complicated trying to sort through how you navigate new parenthood and then new parenthood alone.

Speaker 2:

That's right. And I think again, if , when I think that the panic of going, oh, this isn't what I thought it was going to be. You know, the rabbit in headlights is not helpful because you know, maybe that those two people just could never have done it. You know , even if you know me , maybe it just wasn't to be. But the one thing I learned from , uh, my best girlfriend at the time, I was still my best friend. She gave me such a gift by making sure that Hannah was always part of the relationship with Roger, because it's a logical to use the child in any way against sell the parents . But there is something because you're angry and protective and Huff that's so wrong, but I was helped by somebody else. So I think again, when you look back at, when you're hurting, even though, you know , w we're all responsible for why it goes wrong, it's not one person. I really know that you're still hurting. Both of you are hurting, but the child has to be with both parents that I have , as I say, I'm really grateful for that huge nudge. I have a critical time.

Speaker 1:

It sounds like you have some fantastic support and your friend then if she was able to help you see the importance of that relationship with Roger, for your child ,

Speaker 2:

Because it's illogical to try and deny somebody else something just cause you might feel that you yourself have been denied the dream. It does challenge your personality. And , uh , it just, it's a very challenging time. Actually . You just looking back. And I remember at the time when I was sort of in a state of this wasn't well , if I wanted that I wanted to aim for neutrality was my goal. I just thought I don't want to laugh. I don't hate, I just don't want to have to feel raw. And maybe that's another fix because nobody's ever neutral because relationships are ongoing and they evolve and, and we got, you know, we're in each other's lives, but then you must do

Speaker 1:

Each other's lives, aren't you when you've got a child. So I think if you can, as you say, at the point of breaking up, really , it's almost realizing that isn't it. And knowing that you've got to have some relationships. So if you can make it as even if at the beginning, it's a little bit forced, but if you can make it as equal as possible, just to allow the possibility for that to grow and develop over time. And that's the thing, it doesn't have to be perfect at the start. Does it, do you think your K parenting relationship has grown over the years?

Speaker 2:

Yes. But then the thing you can sort of turn it on its head and go, well, if you get on that, well, what did you get divorced ? And that can be confusing as well. I remember when Hannah was really young, she wanted us both to have a peak go to the pizza express together and we both did, but it's just also having to understand the kind of individual characters you are as well. And, you know, you can aim for sort of textbook perfection or even close better than bad, but you are also the people you are and you can't, you have to accommodate the fact that that person is going to have those needs. This person's going to have those needs and people get together for a reason. And I think it is important to separate with forgiveness and even some affection for that , for the personality, but equally you're not going backwards. Each person has to go forward and make new relationships and , or indeed, you know , have half the single life, you know,

Speaker 1:

Just interesting listening to you because you're somebody who, for whom the divorce is quite aware in the past. And you were talking before about, you know, writing a memoir. Do you think people really learn from past mistakes or do you think we just make them in slightly different ways as we go through our lives ?

Speaker 2:

Well, it'd be interesting to know what we think is a mistake because sometimes it's quite good just to jump in and connect with someone with, with very few expectations. That's a reminder that you're alive, that you have feelings that you, even if it's physical, there's a value. So, you know, what are all our ultimate formulas of the best, ideal situation? You know, a good companion ship that you tend to get when you're older is not what you are when you're younger. You know , I think relationships come in very different shapes and sizes. And I mean, I would like to, I mean, I'm married. I say currently married, which is just stupid. I want it stupid way showing off about it as if, as if I'm that interesting , but you know, I've been married for 20 years and that relationship has evolved from when we first met. When we first met Knights was petite because we were so in love with acting your margin , not that is the asset . Does , are we going to eat well, I didn't ask for it all the not eating, but I think it's wonderful to have the opportunity to have that in a lifetime, but you have to be able to whether being on your own or get off with someone that's cheering, all sorts of things are cheering. Aren't they, they come in different shapes and sizes. As I say,

Speaker 1:

Absolute , your relationships don't have to be the

Speaker 2:

Same. No.

Speaker 1:

Do you think then that there are, we have to get better as a society then it sliding in and out of relationships. So all relationships have a value. We have multiple relationships, but we seem to make quite a drama out of ending them. And there seems to be a lot to ill informed kind of stuff out there about how you end a relationship decently, and you know, how you go your separate ways without having to take down everybody with you. So In us as a society, in terms of what we know about breaking up, well,

Speaker 2:

It's very good to have an ideal to work towards. It's very good not to plan it . It's very good to have conversations where you feel all right about being a human being, who in a relationship that didn't last , whatever that one in three, you would know more than me tend not to last. So it's inevitable or largely inevitable, but a lot of relationships won't stay married. So it is part of life. It's not a horror or an ideal. It's just, you know, like doing the shopping that the chances are that that will happen either to us or people. We know. So it's a fact of life. Interestingly, I was thinking about this, my daughter has just broken up with someone and I'm full of admiration as to how she's dealing with it. But I think she went through the pain of the breakup before. And then very because the writing was on the wall and very briefly, this is a , this is an ideal way to do it very briefly. She initiated the conversation because sometimes the other one is too frightened to do it. And in denial and it's just been crossed because they just don't know how to break up. And she enabled it because as the young people say her truth knew that she had to do that. And it's really strange. So the , she had the pain before and now being newly single is all right. So that's quite an interesting process. I think , I don't think I had that kind of self-awareness when I was in my late twenties, early thirties, I think I just kind of ricocheted from person to person and did my work and just needed to people to like me a lot still to me , I honestly don't think I knew what it took. And then even if you do try and be mature and emotionally available and talk about it, the other person may not have the same language. So that's pretty useless as well, because you can do it yourself, but you're still subject to another person making you feel less than good. Yeah .

Speaker 1:

A brick wall sometimes. Yeah, absolutely. But I think what you're saying, it does sound like more people are getting the language and the understanding of, you know, relationships and being able to talk more openly about them, not just the breaking up bits, but the good bits too. And , and I think there's more people able to express what they want out for relationship. And because we don't have the same kind of economic constraints, we're not forced to stay in relationships for economic or other reasons these days. So

Speaker 2:

I think it's interesting that people do still want to get married actively as older people. And then I was thinking, so there are other reasons that , you know, we live longer. Maybe if your marriage, then the other person then has a power of attorney to go forbid if you get ill, you know, there's kind of economic slash caring reasons to get married. But for me, you see having been married twice, I was thinking, well, if I end up on my own, then would I kind of cleave to getting married again? But it's interesting. I think it's especially the , with COVID everything is nicer and easier to be with someone else,

Speaker 1:

All the imperfections .

Speaker 2:

I could not get a boyfriend. I couldn't get a boyfriend, but I had a child, you know, a toddler. And then, you know , I did have two boyfriends and 10 years, but it's a weird one as I'm sure any person who has been in those shoes will it , you know , it changes, it changes everything because you, then the person you're with has to accommodate another element. So we go back to this, maybe fictitious ideal of two, single people, not having children meeting in order that they might then possibly if they want to have children and so forth. But what happens when that perfection doesn't either ever happen or it happens and then it , it fragments and then you don't want boyfriends .

Speaker 1:

Yeah. The complexity of dating with a , a small child, a huge outlay. It must've been an incredibly difficult time and just the cost of babysitting and trying to split your time. It must've been really full .

Speaker 2:

Is this fair to say, I don't know the answer, but you do sort of feel that when it's a cliche, but then sometimes those are helpful to illustrate things that, you know, the man in the playground with the kids, single male father will get pats on back and woman on own single parent , the , oh yeah. You've , you know, less intrigued all around because there's a , because it's more one is at home more of the time, generally speaking, I know that things have changed. Honestly, things have changed so much from when I was there. Do you know? I think it's very painful, but if we know, I think we do know a bit more and I still think it's worth throwing your cup in the ring and doing your best and seeing a full relationship. Can't be glorious in some way. I still think it's worth having a go. I'm not far off . I wasn't,

Speaker 1:

And I'm still not put off ever hateful,

Speaker 2:

Ever hopeful in all things, because the thing is if you're still alive, but as we are, there are some things that are more fun to do with someone else. And there are some things where you need your and separateness is just that we were very separate.

Speaker 1:

I've heard you say in the past as well, that you felt like me not being able to make the American last , there's a failure. And I wonder why they still assist with this narrative. That for all sorts of reasons, that marriage doesn't work out. But somehow we failed. What keeps us going back to that same language and narrative?

Speaker 2:

I think it becomes, that's what we were saying at the beginning, which is that you set out to do something, you know , that takes a lot to choose someone or the person to choose you at roughly the same time. You know, it's a big, it's a big thing. And the day before you married the day after your mind is you are in a different state, whether it's legal or not. So for that to go away is a failure because you failed at your goal. And I do remember my mother who was so brilliant and not like judgemental . I think the only thing I heard to say, thank you about Hannah was it's a shame. So that was like an older person's view from the point of view of the child. Because in those days more people got divorced less than they . And you can argue that there is stability with, in the kind of nuclear construct. You can argue that that provides it. But then I had stability and I ended up pretty crazy doing risky things and not being that normal, whatever that means. So there isn't evidence necessarily that a nuclear family, producers in quotes a normal stable offspring, because we're still personalities. Aren't we,

Speaker 1:

I think there's a difference between people who keep a relationship. That's clearly failing together for the sake of the children and you know, a healthy relationship. I think if you've got a healthy relationship and there are two parents is better for children, but if that's not possible, then there are still things you can do to mitigate risks. And there are lots of things you can do as a couple that increase the risks . So an unhappy relationship arguments that aren't resolved or there's poor behavior, or there's, you know, role modeling on happiness in relationships is not a great look for your kids. As a parent, you don't want to be teaching your kids that you just have to settle and get on with it. And if you're unhappy, you just suck it up. We all say to our kids that you can go out and do what you want be who you want the effort. And you've got to try. It's hard work. So modeling that level of dissatisfaction feels really uncomfortable. So I think absolutely, it's not about it just being one or two parents. It's the quality of that relationship and what you can provide. And I also think it's about bringing in other people. They say it takes a community to raise a child. And if you end up with a single parent, it's about the influences you can bring to your child as a consequence. Isn't it? Your , your friends, your family,

Speaker 2:

We all aim high. We all want to do one thing. You could say, we all want to do our best. That that's what all we can do, but everybody's pattern. I got things wrong. You , you know, we're always going to know that we could have done it better, but if we knew, but at the time, yeah. You know, who is perfect. I did probably lose my temper. I mean, how can you be calm, reasoned, fun, engaging a good cook and career person all at once, all the time. You cannot. And I think it's okay to not be.

Speaker 1:

And the relationship will support you in those times as well when you're being boring or shout outs . Yeah. I'm really struck by what you said before about, you know, the, the idea of failure comes from the fact that you'd set this goal to stay married. Well, let's challenge that as an assumption then if we know the stats will show 2% of marriages end in divorce, is it a realistic goal then to think that you're going into a marriage and it's going to last forever. If the stats say 42% of the time, that's not going to happen is our goals. We need to challenge.

Speaker 2:

Well, what's interesting is that time of inception, conception, whatever, or being in love, you don't have rational thought that's not eating momentarily. I just think that it's an ability. Human beings have an ability to connect, but is without rationale . And I think that if in a lifetime, if you look back, you go, well, how many times have we in quotes been in love? Maybe there are about three or four people that you could have had that connection with in a lifetime, maybe more now, obviously. But so at that time you jump in because other stuff, there's other stuff going on, like your chemicals and your, you know, that you can meet someone and go, okay, I really like you, but actually I don't want to have a child with you if that's a measure or I don't like you at all, my really never want to see you , you know ? But yeah, all of us have got the capacity for happiness. It's just that happiness doesn't last necessarily, but we've all got the

Speaker 1:

Capacity.

Speaker 2:

And that's when we jump in and we have our phones and a lot of us seem to want to get married or live together. That seems to be quite usual. And yet gosh, if, if having those feelings of free and so powerful and intense, I can understand why we all want them. It's great when it's going well, isn't it. It's a beautiful thing.

Speaker 1:

When you were divorced talent , did you feel a sense of loneliness?

Speaker 2:

Yeah, I think because at the time at the school, I mean, it was very different times and I know they will comedies and things are written about it now. But I think I was probably one of the few single parents at the school when I, I didn't go every day to pick her up if I was working. But, and I remember there was one cup of Bayer. She asked me round supper and they didn't mind that I didn't have someone. And I was thinking all that's quite modern . You made to feel that you're not part of a community,

Speaker 1:

But maybe that's different now, but in those days, and then with the parents, they, you had to, you know , steel yourself to connect and you go, everyone knows, we divorced where now talking to the form teacher, you know , there's kind of a stigma. You just have to be strong about it. And at one element you would feel, oh, I'm not a couple. Whereas because the majority of the society that I was in at that time probably was a couple. Um, so this came from feeling different and out on a limb, you mean socially as much as anything else.

Speaker 2:

So in the, and then you're you think that you should be doing everything together as a unit? Like, you know, you'd get out in the park and you go, oh my God , well , I'd be with my school friends , but you know, you, that thing where you see everyone else seems to be a couple. And it is so unfortunate though , because a thing happened that you no longer remain with that individual person at that time, the layering is that you then feel in some, the inferior, you just go, you're doing it differently, but you do , you still love your child. Everyone still loves each other with the child. It's just, you've got to crack on, in a different way and you get over it. There's the joy.

Speaker 1:

Yes. Do you think there is a timeline for getting over it? Cause I know lots of people listening to the podcast, maybe you're in the midst of it and it feels pretty dark. And you know, when you're in there, you can't see sometimes the light at the end of the tunnel. You can't see when it's going to get better. Do you think there is a point in time and is that a , is that a numerical point in time or does something happen where you do wake up at some point and feel okay, I can cope with this. This is,

Speaker 2:

I think it doesn't like that kind of intense heartache or whatever it doesn't last. It just, can't my thing of before years for, I think proper four years for getting over ma for love affair. That's my statistic. That's before I got my, that site , when I was younger, I would say that took me one , but then I would always, this would be my trip to my daughter when she was at university. I'd say, look, get off of someone else. That was always my kill. It was amazing. Maybe not. Yes. I think it's like, you know, getting off a hobby, you know, if something's been taken away from you, then replace it. And then even though that isn't going to be a replacement that you get back on the horse. So I think it's actually, you can call it rebound. I think being active is really

Speaker 1:

It's getting into the habit going habit .

Speaker 2:

Yeah. I'm not asking so much from it, but just being active because people are really interesting. And um , I like being on my own a fair amount, but oh, the joy of just being with other people and having a laugh and connecting and comparing notes, comparing notes has everything. So I think you have to kind of give yourself a chance to get out there and connect and compare notes. And then you don't feel so lonely.

Speaker 1:

And when you met your now husband, did you know at the time that this was going to be one that lasted or was it just somebody to get off with HIPAA ?

Speaker 2:

Yes. One is reliant on proximity. Even make a decision a few weeks before I've been on one of those mind and body weekend courses where you meet a lot of people who come from other countries and it's a good way to meet people, but it had for two days, I'd done the kind of mind and body stuff where you have to get into pairs and you have to do all these things and being like, you know , a drama school you'd do that. And then I had got into the habit of not looking at people in that are in the, I just, I become a bit shut off. So the combination of me doing this, like whoa, sort of slightly woo course, which was great. You know, you do a bit of singing and dancing and getting into Paris and then going on, it wasn't a blind date, but going out of my comfort zone with a love of school friend and Chris was in that group and I didn't want to go and I was busy and I was thinking , why am I here? Why am I going to this market town to do Y uh, and then that's why it was also when I, there were things were aligned when I say set up and then I thought, oh, you're interesting. Oh, I better behave. Oh, that's a surprise. So it was a combination of me giving something a chance and actually just physically and mentally meeting someone where there was a connection. And then we got married six months later, which it sounds like I'm boasting and I'm not. It's just that . I think it's important for people to know that things can happen. They just happen because life is full of things happening.

Speaker 1:

Yeah . It, wasn't just a random chance thing. You'd gone through a bit of a process by the sounds of it, getting yourself in the right mental place. And then you like say certain things have to happen. There have to be a physical attraction. You have to be going to a party, that kind of stuff. But there'd been all the work in the background. What are those tips then? So if people now, what are your best tips for getting back on the ,

Speaker 2:

Okay. Uh , what I would say, cause there's really important. Counterpoint to me doing that funny Wu course was actually accepting. And I know this sounds corny, but I wasn't going to get married again. And that thing where you , they say at married at first sight, the chops don't , you are enough, but honestly accepting that you are enough that you can do it . I thought I literally said that night to my friends, Christie in the garden, before we went to the event, I said, I will not get married again. It's hunter and me. I get that. Now I know why I wasn't thrilled about it, but I wasn't fighting it. And so it was an honesty surrendering that, I mean, you can't fake this. You have to somehow genuinely surrender all that. And then you're not hungry and you're not desperate and you're not looking, but you're still cool enough to jump in. So it was a combination of doing the workshop and then accepting that I wasn't going to just , just stop looking, just stop and accept and then being a bit bold because I think I probably the fear of rejection is so huge that we get into the habit of not taking the initiative because we think rejection is the worst thing. But being rejected a few times in relationships that don't matter too much is quite a good grounding because then you go, oh, it's not the worst thing because I got chunked by someone before, when I was a single parent on the phone and the person just said, oh yes, I know I'm not, I don't want to relationship with you. And I'm like, no, of course not . Why , why, why would you? And then I went to the fridge and had some wine and it took me two weeks. And then I was really grateful for having Hubba interlude. Yeah. So rejection is all right. It toughens you up. Yeah .

Speaker 1:

And there's a , there's a lot in this journey. Isn't married . Like if you just write it down on a bit of paper, it looks like a very neat progression. You know, you have a relationship, it doesn't work. You've got your move on. You have the next one, but there's so much goes on in that period. Like you say, that self awareness and self development , the knocks , the physically having set date when it's really difficult, the rejection, the go of things that you've clung onto for like a long time in order to get yourself to where you are. And all of that has to happen before the session where you can find somebody to be in a relationship with where you can be .

Speaker 2:

But Kate, maybe just accepting for less than perfect. So as well, if that's what you want and being okay with yourself, but what used to hold me back was just cause some quite intense. It was just fear of rejection. Or if you can tackle that one, then you can actually get out and about and engage quite acceptably. What is the worst that can happen as somebody just at that point in their life that they just don't want to , you know, get crack on with. You we'll find somebody else who does, but um , but all that your shopping list, we need a shopping list of how to do it. Yeah ,

Speaker 1:

Exactly. Well , um , but it's interesting listening to the reflections of somebody. Who's a way away from it because a lot of the time when we talk about divorce and separation, we're talking when we're in the thrust of it and that colors our view of it and it colors how we see it and how we think about it. But actually what's been so fascinating about this conversation is that the it's been so interesting to hear what happens after the process of time has happened. And then how that mellows your view, how it enables you to reflect and how it gives you some perspective on what has been a tricky time in your life that you sort of drama and you get the, the underneath bit, the , you don't get the initial crunch, you get the mellow middle,

Speaker 2:

You do get the Metta Midland . As I said, my, my hope, but when it was painful was to be neutral. And that's the sort of artificial construct I don't need that. You just see people for what they are and it's turned out in the way it's turned out. And probably the two of our personalities wouldn't have survived and fight , but we didn't know that. So I think the inevitable happened and yes, it's painful, but I don't think it could have worked out any differently. So that's quite useful.

Speaker 1:

I could talk about it all afternoon, but sadly at the end of the time enough for sharing those reflections ,

Speaker 2:

Um, thank you for your questions. I never really helpful questions making me think

Speaker 1:

Really interesting. Thank you. What are you up to and where can people find out about you Helen?

Speaker 2:

I founded the comedy women in print prize, quit, which people couldn't find on the internet to encourage a witty women, writing something I quite passionate about. And I'm writing my memoir and hopefully getting out and doing some slightly jolly gigs, like as an old person and maybe even doing a bit of temporary , you know , just forget myself a bit fit page . I might be able to sort of walk along to a stage and do a little bit. That's what I want now finish the memoir and get out and doing some gigs and carry on nurturing, witty women's rights .

Speaker 1:

Sounds fantastic, Helen . Thank you so much . You can find out more about this [email protected] and you can find me on Twitter at Kate underscore daily as well. If you want to find out when the next episode will be sent through. Thanks ever so much for your time, Helen, and thank you all for listening.