A Child’s Right to Matter with Angharad Rudkin and Helen Adam

In this episode, Kate is joined by clinical psychologist, Angharad Rudkin, and solicitor, mediator, and campaigner Helen Adam. 

About the episode:
 
Kate and Helen begin the episode by discussing the Family Solutions Group (FSG) and explaining the Right to Matter report.

They move on to discuss who in Government currently takes responsibility for children when parents separate. Helen explores some of the consultations' findings as well as the common questions that emerged from the UK Youth Parliament.

Later on in the episode, Kate and Angharad discuss how children and families are impacted during parental separation, whether divorce or separation impacts children’s mental health and to what extent. Also, they explore what this can look like day-to-day and what the key factors are that lead to significant impact.

Finally, Helen and Adam give their recommendations for further help and advice and the next steps for future reports and actions on the level of government.

About our guests:

Helen Adam started her work with separating families as a solicitor in London. Following a career break, she retrained as a mediator and founded Wells Family Mediation. Helen is also chair of the Family Solutions Group (FSG). The FSG presses for coordinated political oversight and funding for separated families. We’ve previously recorded an episode on language with Helen, so make sure to have a listen. 

Dr Angharad Rudkin is a clinical psychologist with over 20 years experience of working with children and families to discuss divorce and separation from the perspective of children.

Angharad is also an expert for the Metro's relationship column, offers training and consultation for family lawyers and worked as a lecturer on the Clinical Psychology doctorate at the University of Southampton for 12 years.

Angharad was a consulting editor for ‘101 Questions Answered about Separating with Children’ and has recently published a book for children on how to cope with their parent’s divorce, The Split Survival Kit, written with children’s author Ruth Fitzgerald.

We’ve also recorded an episode with Angharad in the past which is number 57 if you would like to have a listen.

More resources:

Get in touch with amicable for information on the legal, financial and children aspects of separation. Book a free 15-minute consultation with an amicable expert through the amicable website.

#TheLegalBit

Transcript

[00:00:00] Welcome to the Divorce Podcast, where we explore all aspects of ending relationships, separation and parenting apart. If your marriage or partnership has ended, or you have friends and family who are separating, this podcast is for you. I'm Kate Daly, a Relationship Counselor, Divorce Specialist and Co Founder of Amicable, the online legal service for separating couples.

In each episode, we look at relationships and separation from different angles. including the emotional, legal, and social. I'm joined by experts and special guests who share their own unique stories, experience, and tips with the goal of helping people end relationships in a kinder and better way. In this episode, I was joined by Helen Adam and Angharad Rudkin to discuss the voice and rights of children during their parents separation.

Helen started working with [00:01:00] separating families as a solicitor in London, then retrained as a mediator and founded Wells Family Mediation. Helen's also the chair of the Family Solutions Group, which presses for coordinated political oversight and support for separated families, and recently published a brilliant report called A Child's Right to Matter, which we discuss in this episode today.

We've previously recorded an episode with Helen on language, so make sure you have a listen. It's number 63. Angharad is a clinical psychologist with over 20 years experience working with families. She was the consulting editor of the book 101 Questions Answered about separating with children and published another book called The Split Survival Kit, which was written with children's author Ruth Fitzgerald.

We've also recorded an episode with Angharad previously, which is number 57, so another one to add to your list. This episode is focused on children, and we start by looking at the impact of parental [00:02:00] separation on children, and then explore how parents can help them, and ultimately who's responsible in government for protecting their rights.

If you love this episode, then please subscribe and rate us on your preferred listening platform. Welcome both. Now, before we begin, we've got tradition here on the podcast and I want to hear your separation song. So what have you chosen and why? Helen, let's start with you. So my separation song is an old favorite from Meatloaf.

Two out of three ain't bad. Don't know if you've had that one before. No, but that could be my story because I've had two divorces, so maybe the third time is going to be my lucky time. Thank you, Helen. Why have you chosen that one? Oh, well, I love Meatloaf and it's a great song, but there's something there about the complexity of relationships.

But also let's face it, I'm a mediator and [00:03:00] it's rare that clients go out feeling absolutely thrilled with the outcome for us. Uh, generally a good outcome is where both clients go a little bit disappointed. So the two out of three ain't bad kind of feeds into happy mediation outcomes. Fantastic. I love it.

And Angharad, what's your separation song? Well, it was very hard to choose, but I have gone for Fall at Your Feet by Crowded House. This is my go to song, or was my go to song with any split up, with any heartache. It's a very sad song and it's all about that hopelessness of that initial heartbreak and how am I ever going to get through.

But of course you do. But what I was really quite interested in when I was choosing the song was all the research about music and the emotional impact of music and how that can either help lift your mood or dip your mood. So I was thinking, what do you want at that point? What do you want? Do you want something to lift your mood or do you want something just to reinforce your position of absolute?

Heartbreak at that point [00:04:00] and I went for the latter, I thought, yeah, no, I'll be with you on that. I think you've got to feel it. Haven't you? Yeah, you've really got to feel it so you can move on. Oh, thank you both. That's brilliant. Now look, this episode's all about the child's right to matter. So we're going to be talking about how children can be either involved or not involved in a divorce and separation.

And I'm going to start, Helen, if I can, by just asking you, because your group, the Family Solutions Group, has authored a report called The Child's Right to Matter. So can you tell us a little bit about the Family Solutions Group and specifically about that report to kick us off? Yes. Thank you, Kate. So the Family Solutions Group was set up a few years ago in response to some work done by the Private Law Working Group to look at how to improve outcomes for families experiencing the court process.

And one of the recommendations was that there are quite a number of families that end up in court that actually need other forms of help [00:05:00] before. And so the Family Solutions Group was set up to look into the needs and rights of families of families and where to access support following separation.

Some families obviously need the intervention of the family court, most specifically for safety reasons. But many families who separate, the majority of families who separate, don't need the family court. So what is there for them? We published a report a few years ago, and it found very clearly there's no political oversight for this enormous cohort of society.

And there's just some quite simple things that would make the most enormous difference. To the experience, both of parents and children. And we've done quite a bit of work, which focuses on parents and managing to resolve things. And there's a wonderful member of our group called Judith Timms, who used to say to us, that's all very well and good, Helen, but what about the children?

That's all fine. This initiative or that initiative, let's talk about language. What about the children? So last year, 2023, Judith. [00:06:00] Commenced with a team, a consultation of just over 20 master's degree experts and Anne Harrod was one of them. With simple question, what do children need? What's working well for them and what other services do they need?

And as one could expect, the feedback was very overlapping. Alongside that, the UK Youth Parliament held a consultation with young people and they gave us their feedback. And so the Child's Right to Matter report that we published in November was really just pulling together these two consultations. The adult multidisciplinary consultation and the children's experience and their youth parliament consultation.

So that's what this is all about. Okay. And you mentioned there that obviously the children gave a lot of feedback in terms of what they needed. Angharad, what do you think then children need? So, um, we've got the feedback from the horse's mouth and then from a clinical psychology perspective, [00:07:00] what is it that children need if they're facing their parents own divorce or separation?

Well, If we go initially with what do children in general need, well, we know that divorce does turn upside down a whole child's life, and there's no one area of their life that is not affected by the divorce. So we know that it happens within the home, but actually when that child is outside the home, it's affecting their schoolwork, it's affecting their peer relationships, their friendships.

We also know that children who've gone through a divorce, a higher risk of developing anxiety disorders, depression, and experiencing kind of problematically low self esteem, and we know that this can happen initially, but it can also happen decades later to that child as a result of the catastrophic effect of the divorce.

So we know it can have some real negative impacts on a child, but we also know that for some children, it can benefit them. It can help them grow. We can. teach them new skills. [00:08:00] So we also have to be aware of that, but it's a time of change. And as humans, we're not brilliant at adapting to change. It takes energy.

It takes focus. We often feel overwhelming emotions during this time of change. So even thinking about it, just as a, Transition phase, I think can be useful as well, but what I was really struck by with a child's right to matter is that we have concentrated both in research and in practice at we focused on conflict that we know that when children experienced conflict between parents, it can be very stressful for them, and it can have a real sort of detrimental effect on their well being.

But what was so interesting in this report was that the children were saying, yes, conflict's not great. But also what we've got to really bear in mind is when parents pretend that everything's all right, and they're not giving their children information, and they're not telling them what's happening, that actually that can be harmful and upsetting and [00:09:00] confusing for a child as well.

And I thought that is so interesting. You know, we've gone for the headline in terms of, right, we've got to help kids. deal with conflict. Actually, what we've not really taken account of is this every day, just parents trying to act as if it's all okay, that nothing bad is happening, that we'll be okay and you don't need to know the information that actually this can really impact children's well being as well.

I think that's such an important point. I don't know about you, Helen, as well. When we're working with couples, a lot of the time I hear people who say, Oh, look, we're just going to, until there's some big decisions, until we know what we're doing, we're not going to say anything to the children. And that's kind of right.

But there's a point at which I think children, even some quite young children are picking up on. on what's going on in the household, can see there's a change, can see parents acting differently, and I think it's so important then that there's the honesty. Helen, what is it about our natural desire as parents to [00:10:00] protect our children that can actually be so harmful in a way?

I don't think it's just, Our natural desires as parents, but I think the whole system in a way, certainly when I practice as a solicitor, there was no question that, you know, one would want to know the views of children or involve them. You know, we were coming alongside parents in a very discreet way to help them navigate this change.

And, you know, let's not bother the children, because it's bonkers. The children are living it every day, regardless of whether parents have sat down and talked to them about what's happening or not. They are experiencing change and it may happen very gradually or it may be more dramatic, but they're there living it and to kind of airbrush them out of a whole system.

The whole of government and the way we run our society, it has no responsibility or oversight for the experience of children living through a family separation. If there is [00:11:00] particular vulnerability where the local authority gets involved, then it comes under the heading of public law. and children are consulted and there are systems in place to ensure, I mean, I'm sure that, you know, as ever systems can be improved, but at least there are systems in place that gather around the child, that give them a voice.

In private law, that's where we don't need local authority involvement, where parents are getting on with the child. The job of raising their children. If they separate, they might go off and get help, all kinds of different help. There is literally nothing, no infrastructure, no website, no TikTok, no nothing for children.

It's like, they're just airbrushed out. Let's not talk about the children. Let's, let's not worry the children. Let's not trouble the children. It's bonkers. So it's not just parents. I think as adults, we've got to get over this. Perhaps it's rather old fashioned for my generation. I'm a bit older than you two.

It's kind of, let's not trouble the [00:12:00] children. Actually, they should be central to all of this. And we need to put in place systems. That are based around the evidence of what their needs are and the right that they have to be consulted, to be listened to. You know, that should be our starting point, but we probably need a whole new redesign system.

Yeah. And, and Harold, what's our motivation then as parents? Because you're right, I think there, I think Helen's right. There is this kind of, Let's try and protect children. Let's try and keep them out of it. Let's not, if we talk about it, it will hurt them more kind of thing. And I, are we frightened as parents?

Are we a bit adrift with our own emotions? What's, why don't we involve the children more? Because it just sounds sensible, doesn't it, when Helen explains it like that. But I mean, I guess we're all guilty of just trying to sort of section them off and keep them safe and private. Yeah. Yeah. And it does sound so simple and yet it's so hard to do.

And I think there's a whole [00:13:00] load of factors that contribute to that. And, you know, Helen was saying about culturally almost as well as societally, we've got this expectation now that there's this whole movement of genital parenting, which is that the child is at the forefront, the child is the leader, the parent kind of follows.

And as part of that, what I've seen, well, a fallout of that has been this fear that parents have of creating distress or contributing to distress in their child. And this belief that actually a happy child or a successful child is one that never has a difficult emotion. But of course, life is not like that.

The outside world is not like that. So what we're doing is kind of raising a generation of children. Who have had no experience, no opportunity or very limited opportunity to figure out how to deal with difficult feelings, sadness, fear, anxiety, all of those things. So I think that's bubbling away in the background.

And I think because we've been so good at highlighting the [00:14:00] impact of divorce on children. In some ways, again, not necessarily meant to be fall out of it is that parents are now so frightened of affecting their children as they divorce that they're trying to really hold all the information in, not give too much away and try to protect their children's well being in that way.

But we know that children are sponges, you know, they sense everything and they take in things way beyond that. Things we can ever imagine, really, they can feel it all. So when they're not being given information, but they can sense that there's some difficulty going on, they then fill the gaps themselves.

And we know that the way children do this, especially sort of younger children, they fill it up with stories about what they've done wrong, why they've created this, how much of a bother they are. And so they fill the gaps with sort of horror stories, really. And maybe the reality. would be a bit of a relief to them.

So even though it's a very natural [00:15:00] parental instinct to protect the child from information, and you know, we don't want them to have all the grotty details, really. We do need to involve them. Just as Helen says, they need to be consulted. They need to be listened to. They need to be given some power, but not all power when it comes to getting through the divorce.

Yes. There's a sort of deeper issue as well, which I think holds us back, which is that we still live in a society with Victorian values around family separation, where it's one parent against the other. And one of the really sad things about the consultation from the youth parliament was a number of young people spoke about their parents expecting them to take sides and how unfair that was.

And obviously that's very difficult in that situation, but. You know, there are no sides. There are no sides. This is a family going through a difficult time, changing shape. The language [00:16:00] of sides shouldn't exist, but I think perhaps that's another reason why parents are nervous because they absorb this very unhelpful cultural norm around, you know, warring parents that the media feed us.

And they don't want to put their children in a situation where they have to take sides, but. The more we can dispel that and promote the fact that separation can be managed in a caring, in an orderly, in a, in a positive communication way. So that children have the support they need to navigate this. And it's still going to be challenging at times, but all that horrible damning, damning stuff, that's all part of the Victorian way of doing it.

You know, we need to have a new cultural awareness. of, you know, separating sensitively and carefully, uh, in a way that holds our children. I'm making that the norm as well, because that's the difficulty. It's seen as a bit of a niche thing, [00:17:00] isn't it? You know, a whole bunch of, you know, well resourced middle class parents can do a little bit of this, but for most people, it's just not the norm.

But we have to change that whole, that whole way. And it has to become embedded in every touch point in a separation, doesn't it? So that people can, or everybody can access this. And it's the expectation of us as a society that this is how the majority of parents will access or will run a separation almost, isn't it?

I kind of, I worry that it's just seen as something that's quite niche and there are certain people who can and certain people who can't. And I think everybody can do some of it. Maybe you can't do all of it for all different reasons, but some of it. And I think just. Focusing on the one or two things you can do rather than feeling that, as you said, Helen, you default into this kind of Victorian side taking and bad mouthing and demonizing of the other is so unhelpful, really.

It's scarily unhelpful. Angharad. Yes, it just reminds me of back to Helen's two out [00:18:00] of three ain't bad is that sort of sense, isn't it? So if you can come away with something, but not everything, but just thinking another demon that we have to deal with these days is shame. I think we are getting much better at identifying and talking about shame.

But I don't think we've got that far in talking about shame when it comes to divorce. And certainly the children that I work with, they feel immense shame. And this gets in the way of them seeking the help that they need, because they're so ashamed of their position, of their family's position, of what the future looks like, and then they're embarrassed, so they don't actually end up telling teachers, they don't talk about it with friends, they kind of secretly might go and seek some help online, you know, bit of information, bit of support.

But I think also there's this idea of social perfectionism these days, which is a quite a big power really. And that the belief is that is linked to this increase in shame [00:19:00] that we're seeing in general in adults as well. So I just wonder whether with divorce as well, one of the things we need to do is to really name the feelings that come with it and let children know that shame is okay.

It's a normal part of going through this process, but that shouldn't be an obstacle to seeking support, but also that parents, they can feel that shame and still sort of carry their head high because a divorce in itself isn't going to ruin a child's life. It's all the things around it that could impact negativity.

So again, if as Helen says, we can support parents to divorce as well as possible without these Victorian values, without these language and really recognising the emotional impact. in a proactive way, I think that could really help children get the support they need. I think it's about positive role models as well, isn't it?

So we've got the social media generation growing up seeing, as you say, Angharad, all these kind of perfect kind [00:20:00] of families and lives that are fake and are not real and people aspire and obviously want to emulate those, but we, we need some positive role models about how you can separate positively without worrying about, as you say, the shame, but about how you move forward and the focus being on how you can be great parents moving forward and what that journey looks like.

And it seems to me that there's very little emphasis placed on that onward part of co parenting. And that's, that's a long term goal, isn't it? It's not a quick one. You can tick off your list because as your children grow up and as they hit different ages and stages, you need to be able to respond to them in different ways.

Like it's very, my kids were very little, um, when we divorced. They're now, Teenagers and I still have to respond to them about the divorce and about the fact that we're separated parents, but now I'm responding as teenagers and it's different and I need different skills and it strikes [00:21:00] me that this is a journey I've been on and they've been on most of their lives and yet there's just so little we see as a one off you do a one off course or you if you're lucky or you you focus on it whilst you're in the midst of the actual divorce and then.

You just get on with it. And I think there's a massive gap, Helen. What do you think needs to fill this gap? Well, I think the gap could be filled quite easily. I mean, it won't solve the whole problem. But, you know, one of our first recommendations for the original FSG report was public education. And I'm old enough to remember a time as a child when I was popped in the back of the seat, in the car, no seatbelts, my dad was able to smoke his pipe in the car, and had they wanted to, they could have been completely drunk, although, can I say, my parents didn't do that, but the drink driving laws were.

We have had a number of campaigns. Clunk, click, every trip. Mmm, I remember that one. There was the no smoking in the car with children. There was [00:22:00] the don't drink and drive. Obviously, family separation is a bit more nuanced. But it wouldn't be difficult to have an education campaign to promote the values of our law, which is the Children Act, which is that child welfare comes first, and that parents don't have rights to fight over their children, but they have responsibilities to care for them.

And if we could, culturally, we need to get rid of this old law that still is part of it, hangs over families at such a vulnerable time when they're nervous and afraid and upset, may not be sleeping well, may find it hard to be making good decisions. We need some really clear, affirming, hopeful, positive.

Information that, that helps people navigate this in a, in a less fearful and adversarial ways. I think, I do think that we need a government minister to, to take on. It's a huge part of society, but as [00:23:00] Anharad said, if there's a void, If there's a nothing in this subject, it gets filled by other things. One of the really sad things, again, that came up from the consultation was the young people speak about it being a taboo subject.

And in fact, in one of the consultation groups, some of the UK parliament Youth Parliament was done online with an online survey, but some of it was in person group discussion. And in one of those, a young person said, I can't believe it. I'm right in the middle of this. I'm going through it right now. And it hadn't occurred to me that I was allowed to talk to anyone about it.

And I'm sitting in a room and I'm finding that another, the handful of young people are also going through it right now, but we don't ever have permission to talk about it. It's a taboo subject, and that is a problem as well, I think, for children and young people. And, Harrod, I guess one of the issues is, for kids, maybe it feels like that it's, it's [00:24:00] not their story to tell, although we all sitting here are going, oh, it's definitely a story to tell.

I guess their feelings maybe are, is it's, the parents, and they don't want to betray parents or confidences or anything else. So how can we create an environment where it's safe and children feel safe to talk about this? It's difficult. It really is difficult. I think because it's a very private matter.

It's happening normally behind closed doors. It feels private. Um, but what we've then gone and done as a society is then ignored it. Oh, it's private. It's not for us to, you know, get involved. So I think starting with the parents, children will only follow the lead of their parents. So we cannot expect the children to do anything different until us as adults in their environments are doing things differently.

I think, yeah. Children have been given mixed messages about divorce. So, always so common now, this is what we often hear, at least half of the families that we know will divorce, at least half the children in the classroom will have gone through divorce. And yet, no real basis for them, given that [00:25:00] it's a relatively common experience.

The information isn't there. It's not talked about in PSHE. It's not talked about in parent groups. It's not talked about around the dinner table between friends. It's just not talked about. So really what we need to do as adults is drop the shame. That's much easier said than done. I'm aware. Drop the shame, embrace the, the change that can be brought about by divorce, the change for good, as well as the difficult times and not ignore the What is going on for our children and being able to talk to them about it in an age appropriate way and in a way that is emotionally, um, I don't want to say guarded, but at least emotionally contained because what we don't want either is parents just to sob at the children say it is so awful.

What's happening? You know, that's too much the other way. But we do need them to be able to say, um, This is what's going on. I don't have the answers right now, but there's different ways of finding out answers and we just need time and that actually you're talking [00:26:00] and you're being emotionally aware, but not emotionally overwhelmed.

So this in an ideal world is what children need, but parents can only do that if they themselves are receiving support and information and advice from their network. I'm going to put you on the spot then and, and Carad. So when you're, cause I think these, This is the hard part is knowing at what point to have this conversation and what that first conversation should look like.

So when you're trying to involve a child, you obviously, between the two of you, you and your partner, you have to be absolutely certain that the relationship is over, but there's quite a big sort of space in there between being certain the relationship is over and then something like one of you moving out or somebody moving into the spare bedroom, or there can be quite a big.

space there. So when do you have that conversation? And I guess it's not the same for all children, but different children at different, or different ages of children, when do you have the first conversation to alert them to the fact that [00:27:00] something's going on, rather than allow them to guess or find out, or as you say, dangerously fill the gaps?

I wish there was a rule of thumb, but there isn't. But what you could do as a parent is first of all, Have processed it a little bit yourself. You don't want to be giving your children raw emotion, raw information. You want to have formulated it a little bit yourself, made sense of it a little bit, started to develop a bit of a narrative yourself about what has happened, what is happening so that you can then start telling your child.

But then I suppose it's keeping a watchful eye on your child. Your child may well say to you. Okay. Why are you and dad in separate bedrooms now? Why is dad never here on a Monday evening? Why is this? And that could be the way to start a conversation. Well, good question. This is something we've been meaning to have a chat with you about.

If they're not actually asking themselves, because of course kids will observe everything and very often say nothing. Then you can watch [00:28:00] out for their behavior. Are they becoming a little bit more tearful? Are they not wanting to eat? Are they having difficulty sleeping? Do they not want to leave the house to go to school or play group?

Are they starting to withdraw a little bit and just keeping an eye on those kinds of things might give you a clue that, Oh, hold on, something is going on in their mind, they're starting to think, feel and wonder about all of this. So you could then say, I've noticed you've been a little bit more tearful recently.

Is there anything on your mind? And then that's a way of bringing it up. So if the child initiates it, that's ideal. If they don't, then you might need to be a little bit of a investigator and watch and look out for clues and then pick up from it from there. I guess a lot of people sort of dread that first conversation, don't they, Helen?

But once you've had it and in your role as a mediator, there's now opportunities to involve the children. What's an appropriate involvement for a child because, you know, we all hear the horror stories of children in the old days, in the old days, [00:29:00] being asked, you know, who do you want to live with? I mean, we're not asking children that kind of thing, but what's the difference between that kind of obtuse, ridiculous question versus, you know, something that's appropriate and is more investigative of what they want or feel.

So there is a very established mechanism for consulting children where parents are a mediation. And obviously we need the parents consent to approach the children. Uh, these days I send a little WhatsApp. It's offered generally to children who are broadly sort of age 10 or over. They have to be of a suitable age and understanding.

That's not a hard deadline, but it, broadly speaking, it tends to work out at children age 10 and over. We try and keep it very relaxed. And it's none of it ever, ever, ever is about choosing between parents. And one of the positives for us as mediators is that we're able to say to kids, you know, I'm working with both your parents and helping them to make decisions [00:30:00] together.

For how things are going forward and it's helpful for them to take into account any views that you have anything. Is there anything that's going really well? Is there anything you don't particularly like? Is there anything that's really important to you? These sorts of things, future focus, it's absolutely not counselling.

I have no training in that. It's about helping them to contribute to the broader discussions that are going on. The parents are the ones that keep the decision making. So again, there's no. And, and so often children give comments that when we feed back to parents, it, it takes them out of a kind of polarizing environment.

to work together because they love their children and they want their children to thrive. It's what this is all about. So we, at the end of our discussion with the young people, we say, are you comfortable for us to feed everything back? Or is there, should we just go through it? Is there anything you'd rather I don't say?

And sometimes there is, and that's fine [00:31:00] then we don't say it. This is completely different. From what is known as a Section 7 report done by the court officer, the CAFCAS court officer, who has a duty to the court, and the children are met by somebody against the context of parents being against each other.

in a court process. So that's hard. I'm not saying CAFCAS don't do a brilliant job, but it's a very, very different context. And again, I think there's too much presumption that if you ask the children, then it's like pushing them into an adversarial thing they're asking to choose. It's absolutely not that.

One of the action points that came out of the Charles Wright to Matter report was the idea that solicitors who are representing parents who are not in mediation should also make sure they have a model for children to be consulted and their views fed back into the solicitor solicitor process, because otherwise children don't get that opportunity.

And for those who aren't in any legal process or not [00:32:00] involving lawyers or mediators, then we are trying to encourage family hubs to look at putting in place. That's a long way to go on that, but. To understand that all teenagers have a right to be consulted when decisions are made which affect them under the UNCRC.

Again, it's a whole shift in thinking about giving these young people a voice, but I think it's really important and this is hopefully going to shift it along a bit. Yeah, I feel very optimistic that it will shift the dial a bit because it's been a real void of voices, hasn't there? There's been nothing and it's, it's meant that parents have tried to do the right thing without really understanding.

what their children want or need. I just, Helen, are there any other recommendations that you want to really kind of highlight from the FSG report? Because it feels like there's so, there's so much in there and people can go and read it, can't they? And look in detail, because this is the future of where this whole [00:33:00] space is going.

But is there anything else you think is particularly pertinent to, you know, child centered Yeah, I mean, I think the critical thing for parents, for, for young people, for children, the whole of society is that somebody in government has to say, Hey, guess what? Family separation is a thing and it being a thing, let's make sure we do it well.

So it has to be grappled with it. We have to have oversight. And that is the single biggest challenge in all of this. And so if anybody listening is motivated, please contact your MP and ask a very simple question. Who in government takes responsibility for families when they separate? And if, There's not a clear answer to that, then this whole thing is, is, you know, it's very difficult.

So that, that's a very critical political point, but otherwise a very strong theme at Immersive, just the important place that schools have. Now, that's not to put a [00:34:00] burden on schools, goodness me, they already do a whole range of incredible things. I hope that with careful resourcing, this might be quite freeing for schools because at the moment they're given no information and all they've got is the kind of horrible cultural backdrop of Victorian attitudes of parents against each other and they don't want to take sides.

So they don't want to take sides, so they don't say anything. Actually, some really helpful, clear information which is positive. I think it would be great. I think schools are the safe place for young people, children going through this. I think schools, it would be great if they could just provide a listening ear.

Doesn't have to be counselling, just a somebody, staff member, who just is able just to, to listen. So that that child in that group that said, gosh, I'm in the middle of this now and I didn't know I was allowed to talk about it, would have somewhere to go to school. And say, I'm in the middle of this, this is what's going on.

Just an outlet to speak [00:35:00] because I think too often children have to hold everything in. Yeah. I like micro mentoring in schools, micro mentoring, so just when there's somebody around just to walk between lessons and that kind of stuff, just to pick up a kid who you know that's going through a tough time and just walk.

just for like five minutes and stuff like that. I think that has such a powerful impact. Did you want to say anything else, Helen? Well, I think schools is, is critical. We talked about child consultation, political responsibility. It is a shift in cultural thinking to do this well. That's what we need. We, you know, we need as a society to say, this is a part of society that we manage well, that it's intentional.

There are resources. We know what the evidence says. And we're responding to the evidence and we're doing it well. And I think that would help as well. Some of the other comments that we've discussed today about shame, about the taboo, about the kind of guilt that parents feel and the fear and, um, you know, let's, [00:36:00] let's give people confidence that they can manage this in a way which protects their children.

It's the intentionality and the confidence. That's the key thing, isn't it? So I think there's always a criticism that if we spend time doing this, and if we're getting people to do it well and think about it, that will encourage more people to do it in some perverse kind of way. And that's where a lot of the resistance I think has come.

Like if we spend money and time doing this, we're either admitting failure or we're encouraging and stoking and saying, well, divorce is a lifestyle choice. So let's all jump on the bandwagon. We don't kind of like our partners. Let's all get divorced. and it's such a shame because that's just not where this conversation is rooted.

But that narrative gets hijacked a lot of the time and it makes it very difficult to push some of this forward and to get government to commit personnel and resources to, and I find that quite frustrating. And Angharad, from your, oh sorry, Helen, were you going to? I was only just going to say that [00:37:00] political peace Uh, for people that have no lived experience either of family separation personally or professionally, somehow there's an attitude that if you promote safe separations and good mechanisms, it's promoting divorce, but it isn't, and, and, and just keeping it a taboo subject ignores the reality.

That all children growing up today are either growing up with parents who live apart, or have a best friend whose parents who live apart, or will, you know, form a life partner with somebody whose parents lived, it, it, it. We all are living this. It's part of normal society. So let's do it well. And I think there's been a reluctance politically to talk about it because it sounds as though we're promoting family breakdown and that's never what this is about.

And Hang, Hang Harrod, I was just going to come back to you to say, um, where can people Find support, what's, what kind of resources are out there at the moment for parents who want to do this in an [00:38:00] intelligent and committed way and want to do it, you know, with the full involvement of their children? Well, I would say the very first place to look is at your existing networks.

Um, most of the children that I work with, most of the parents that I work with say to me, I never thought it would happen to me. This sense of this wasn't the plan. I never wanted this. So having to get over that can only be done by talking and talking about it with friends and family. Then. After that, we know that being a parent is an incredibly difficult job, and the best support for us, again, are the people around us, the people we can watch, the people we can learn from, the people we can just be brutally honest about our failings as parents, and be accepted and grew short.

Beyond that then, I think it's very important that we don't give children the message that they are broken and they need fixings. So children who are going through a divorce are going to behave badly. They're [00:39:00] going to be emotionally overwhelmed. They're going to be mean and rude and nasty and silly and non compliant.

All these things that parents come to me and say, my child is going, you know, is, is acting in this way. These are all normal ways of responding to an abnormal situation or abnormal as in. This isn't my everyday kind of life. So we've got to help parents to accept and tolerate and confidently manage those.

And if beyond that, there is a specialist mental health requirement, then refer for counselling therapy support. But what we often see is this sort of knee jerk reaction from parents from a place of love thinking, Oh my goodness, I've got no idea how to cope with my child. And then the poor child goes and sits in a waiting list for six months, a year, three years, with this sense of I need fixing, but nobody around me can fix me.

So I've got to wait till I see this specialist person who can fix me. So I think really my message would be to [00:40:00] parents, look around you, see what you've already got, see what resources you already have and networks and support. There are some brilliant books out there. So anything but the chords, the 101 questions about separating children.

The book that I wrote with Ruth Fitzgerald, The Split Survival Kit for Kids. These are all books that name and confront the difficulties and also empower parents. So look around you, see what support there is there. And then the schools, as Helen says, are just amazingly valuable and neutral spaces for families.

And it's our job now to help support schools that they can support children. So, Helen, where can people find out more about you and the support that you offer separating parents? Good question. I mean, the work of the Family Solutions Group, we're just a not for profit, voluntary group of professionals. I think on a personal level, I think there are some great resources out there and Harrods mentioned some of them.

I think I would also turn to people [00:41:00] that you know who've managed this well. And say, can I come and have a coffee? What worked? How did you manage that? Where did you get the support not to feel really angry with your ex? And how were you civilized with each other when inside you must've been boiling? You know, how do you work out some of these arrangements and find out how people do it?

Because we don't have public role models of it being done really well. So I think all of us know people who've done it well, and let's go and learn from them. But otherwise, there's the Family Mediation Council will help you find a local mediator. There are some really progressive solicitors who are doing collaborative law and working together.

I've just done a piece actually about the need for solicitors to be publicly available as family solution solicitors rather than family justice solicitors, because the Family Justice Brigade, they're trained in court work. We need, uh, a profession of solicitors who are visibly, [00:42:00] demonstrably trained in family solutions so that people can go to them knowing that they're not going to be taken off to court.

They're not going to have everything made worse. And I think we need the legal profession to embrace this as a, as a new, in a sense, a new accreditation, a family solutions accreditation. Because there are some fabulous solicitors out there, but there are some dreadful solicitors and they all look the same on their websites.

Yes. So that's another piece of work. It's an, it's an important point you make about the friends and family there, because that's one of the things that we're very passionate about at Amicable. We're trying to create a friends and family campaign because very often the need, the emotion as a friend or family member of somebody going through a divorce is to protect each your person.

And that actually is not very helpful. It might be what they want to hear at the, in that deep sort of emotional moment, but actually how you respond to somebody and how you resist the urge to demonize the other partner is really, really key. And I think if we could change that and [00:43:00] get that right as a society and find different ways of offering support, that would be an incredible step to moving this debate and this narrative on.

And Haja, I'm just very conscious of time. I'm just going to come to you briefly. Where can people find out about the work that you do and where can they access help and support from yourself? It's a good question. I've got my email address, um, which I could put in the bio. So just feel free to directly contact me.

Put that in the show notes. Yep. The Split Survival Kit is available from all good bookshops. And one resource that I didn't mention actually was the National Family Mediation website. It's got some excellent information for schools. About the process of divorce and what teachers and other staff members within schools can do to help.

So that could be really useful too. And I was just thinking about the, what about Aruna videos on YouTube? They're free to access them. They're filmed for parents to give them a little bit of information about child development, child wellbeing in the context of divorce. Fabulous. Well, that's loads of stuff.

We'll make sure all of those things go into the show notes as well [00:44:00] so people can click and download as they wish. But it's been a brilliant conversation. Thank you both so much for joining me. Helen and Angharad, thank you very much for guesting on the show today and thank you everybody for listening.