Values in divorce: a coach's guide to staying true to yourself

Your values shape every relationship you have - so what happens to them during a separation?

Kate is joined by Katie Lancaster, an executive and leadership coach, to explore why holding onto your values during divorce can change everything about how you come out the other side. If you're trying to get through a divorce or separation in a kinder, calmer way, this conversation is full of practical tips to help you stay grounded.

We talk about:

• How to stay true to yourself in tough divorce negotiations - even when emotions are running high 
• The ABC technique (awareness, breathe, choose) for moving from reaction to response 
• Why self-compassion is a non-negotiable, not a nice-to-have 
• Why your divorce might not feel over even when the paperwork says it is

This episode is for anyone going through separation or divorce who wants to come through it feeling stronger, kinder and more like themselves.

Meet Katie Lancaster

Katie Lancaster is an ICF and CTI certified executive and leadership coach who helps senior leaders and teams perform better and find more meaning in their work. After starting her career at Boston Consulting Group in Munich and completing an MBA at IESE Barcelona, she held board-level roles at global communications agencies in London. She has also built her own consultancy, advises start-ups and is a member of the Harvard Business Review Advisory Council. 

You can learn more about Katie on her website and you can get in touch with her on LinkedIn.

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Transcript

Kate Daly 0:04

Welcome to the Divorce Podcast, where we explore all aspects of ending relationships, separation, and parenting apart. If your marriage or partnership has ended, or you have friends and family who are separating, this podcast is for you. I'm Kate Daly, a relationship counsellor, divorce specialist, and co-founder of Amicable, the online legal service for separating couples. In each episode, we look at relationships and separation from different angles, including the emotional, legal, and social. I'm joined by experts and special guests who share their own unique stories, experience, and tips with the goal of helping people end relationships in a kinder and better way. Your values shape every relationship you have. So, what happens to them during a separation? In this episode, I'm joined by Katie Lancaster, an executive and leadership coach, to explore why holding on to your values during divorce can change everything about how you come out the other side. We talk about staying true to yourself in tough negotiations, a simple technique for staying calm when emotions run high, and why self-compassion matters more than you may think. If you loved this episode, then please subscribe and rate us on your preferred listening platform. Welcome, Katie. Thank you so much, Kate. It's lovely to have you. And I should say at the start of this episode, the other sort of claim to fame, if you will, is Katie and her ex-husband were also customers of Amicable. And we're going to be talking about divorce and more importantly, values in divorce. So how your personal values can impact your divorce journey. So that's the topic for today. And it's lovely to see you again. I'm very excited to have this conversation and to talk a bit more about your experience. But maybe, Katie, we start by just giving us a little bit of background into your own personal story. So tell us a little bit about the separation and we'll move on then to talk about how your values played such an important role.

SPEAKER_01 2:15

Absolutely, Kate. Thank you. Well, I would say that without knowing what amicable values are, I can guess that they probably correspond very much with my own personal values, which are the top one is vitality, but then there's communication, there's trust, honesty, and fairness, all very important values, personal values to me. And I was recommended amicable by a family friend. And when we looked into it, both myself and my ex-partner agreed that this could be a really beneficial, helpful alternative to the usual process. So we both embarked on it. I can't speak for him, but I was very enthusiastic.

Kate Daly 3:02

But the point is, you feel at that stage it was very much a mutual decision, then it was something that appealed to both of you and seemed to sort of honour the way you wanted to end the relationship.

SPEAKER_01 3:14

Yes. I mean, I was this was my first divorce. It wasn't my ex's first divorce. So, you know, he obviously had more experience of the process than I did. And I guess being a coach and very much believing in communication, being sacrosanct, having had a 16-year relationship with this person, co-parenting his daughter who lived with us throughout, you know, I was really, really dedicated to making sure that this process was, as your name describes, as amicable as possible. So, yes, I think we we both embarked on it with open minds and enthusiasm.

Kate Daly 3:52

And I guess I don't know what it felt like for you, but I know when I was going through my divorce, the fact that I was, I had a psychological background, I was a relationship counselor, it kind of put a weird additional pressure on me where I felt like I had to be, or everybody would expect me to be, an expert in, you know, extricating myself from a relationship. And I know about you, but I found that incredibly stressful and difficult because I felt like I had to try and act that part when it was actually something that was really deeply very personal. So I was getting my personal and professional roles all confused, trying to bring to bear some of the stuff that I knew about the psychology of relationship breakdown. But, you know, there's always a thing, isn't there, where it's kind of you shouldn't really try and interfere and put your sort of coaching or psychological experience into your own relationships and your own family? You need to leave that to the expert. So I I wonder what it was like for you, you know, dealing with, you know, amicable who are there in a professional capacity, but knowing that you had these professional skills yourself, did it feel like an additional pressure at that point, or was it something else?

SPEAKER_01 5:13

That's such a great question. And I'm just, as you've been saying, that I've been sort of having these flashbacks to uh various encounters and meetings when I'm not sure that I did behave as uh in alignment with my values, particularly, but they were so helpful to hold on to. But I'm not sure I found it a pressure, I think I found it more as a really helpful guidepost right from the outset. And I remember when we had to fill out that grow model at the beginning, and I used, you know, actually not consciously until afterwards, I used three of my top values in designing that grow model. What did I want to get out of this? How did I want to conduct this process? So I don't think I found it a pressure. I think when I was in the moment, the whole divorce thing was a pressure. I mean, it was it was very, I found it very stressful. And I think it probably helped actually having that coaching, coaching background, yeah.

Kate Daly 6:15

Because I should say, for people that don't know, the amicable process is based on a model of coaching called Grow where the G stands for goals, the R stands for reality, the O stands for options, and the W stands for what you're gonna do. And we take people through a process, a coaching process. So as a coach, being taken through a coaching process, that must feel quite strange. But it's interesting to hear you say that your values very much went into that goal setting part where you're trying to imagine the future and what you want life to be like. How important, Katie, is it to have a strong vision of the future to carry you through what is a very arduous process?

SPEAKER_01 7:02

Realistically and honestly, Kate, I didn't have a vision of the future. I had a vision of getting through the process in a way that I felt was true to me. And the way that I define values is my way or our way of being and believing in the world, what matters to us. So I guess it's hardly surprising that I did find them, you know, quite forefront in setting up that grow process. And I did my best. I'm sure we all do our best.

Kate Daly 7:34

And which of your values, then, Katie, did you find particularly useful in those early stages? You mentioned communication as one of the strong ones and trust. I guess when a relationship breaks down, they're the two things that often are the first casualties of a divorce, aren't they?

SPEAKER_01 7:54

Absolutely. Well, honesty and trust are two of my top values. And of course, honesty is my commitment to myself to be truthful and sincere. And trust is hoping that the other person is going to honour that too. And of course, when things get messy and acrimonious and there's miscommunication, which I think however good the intentions are can happen, it's a tough one. It's a tough one. Fairness is also one of my values. And then, of course, we can say, but fairness is very subjective. So yeah, I think it's useful to have a really clear set of intentions, maybe this is how I want to be. And we had some fairly tricky conversations and negotiations to some extent. And before that, I would try and be very intentional about how I wanted to show up in those. And my ex is also emotionally very intelligent, he knows me very well, and so it was a tricky one. And I would say that probably, you know, as as you would expect, we both knew each other well. So it was a very tricky uh situation. And at the same time, I think the comfort that I gained from really committing to myself that I would never say or do anything or commit to anything that didn't feel aligned to what matters to me was really sacrosanct. So I think it really helped me. And I also was very aware of the fact that this was a very difficult situation in a family context with my stepdaughter, and I also wanted to never feel that I had let her down or have been dishonest or untrue or committed to something that wasn't wasn't right, felt aligned with what matters to me.

Kate Daly 10:06

So it's interesting, isn't it? You say you didn't have a vision, but instead it was your internal kind of values that actually allowed you to set the parameters for negotiating a settlement and to move forward through the process.

SPEAKER_01 10:21

Absolutely. Absolutely. It I think that was it. I think if I look back on it now, maybe I was a little positive and a little sort of optimistic how this was all going to uh unfold. And reality soon struck in. And I think if I had had a vision, and I think the vision was that we would all, you know, be live happily ever after, but not be married anymore, um, that soon disappeared. So I think it was really what kept me going, what kept me grounded, what kept me feeling that I was as on track as I could be was having those values. But I think it it is important to say that I didn't really name them or you know, write anything out. It's just a feeling, and I think it is, it's what matters to me, you know, and we all have some, we all have things that we know that without those things, we're not really ourselves. And I think in my life, uh it's always honesty and trust and vitality have always been super important to me, as well as a sense of fairness.

Kate Daly 11:32

I think it's so interesting that it was actually your inner core, your sense that you held yourself to account that was important. Because very often in divorce negotiations, we're so busy trying to call the other person out or hold the other person to account. And that's often where conflict can escalate. But it sounds like, you know, what you reflected on was the importance of being true to you rather than trying to control something that ultimately you recognize you couldn't control, which is somebody else's behavior.

SPEAKER_01 12:09

I love that perspective, and you're absolutely right. And I guess that is something that I naturally aligned with because I know that we can only do our best and how we communicate and communicate with intention and clarity. We can't manage how that other person is going to receive that information or what they're going to do with that information. And I appreciate it. Sounds really easy and you know, very laudable and admirable to say that now, but in the moment, I think that's all we have really. I think we have to sort of negotiate with ourselves because we probably wouldn't be getting divorced if there was such alignment between us. So I think it it was that. I think I gave up on some things. I chose because other things mattered more to me. So I think it was a way, and it's I love the way that you you've communicated or presented that because it's not a way I've thought about it before, but I can think of some very difficult discussions where I felt that I was conceding, and I'm sure, you know, there were the same on the other side. So there's always going to be that situation, and then I guess it's just a matter of no, how do I want to be remembered and how do I want to feel about myself most? Did I let myself down? Have I done anything that I am not afraid, that I'm afraid to own or feel ashamed about? And I I for me it was so important to keep my head held high, even though I was slightly felt like a bit like a rabbit in the headlights on a number of occasions.

Kate Daly 13:53

You talked about that alignment. And obviously, before you separate from a partner, many couples will recognize their sense of values. And was that values conversation something that was part of the relationship before the separation? Or do you think that was just something that was always part of you?

SPEAKER_01 14:13

I think that we always have, we all have an intuitive sense of what matters to us. So, you know, when I work with clients, they all say, I know my values, I know my values. And actually, when we start to explore a bit deeper, they're often quite different to what was originally intended. So I think in a relationship, we know the things that we are aligned with with the other person and the the areas that are possible bones of contention. So to answer your question, no, we didn't have a clear conversation about values. At the same time, we did both commit to entering this process, which has an inherent set of values in it.

Kate Daly 14:56

So I think, yeah. So so and do you think when when partners, you know, argue or when they're not aligned on values, how do people navigate that in relationships? You talk about people navigating it from your coaching side when they have to navigate their own identifying of their values. And and really, I guess when you go for through coaching or something like that, or counseling, it's an opportunity to examine what you have held as your values and to find out is that right? Is that real? Is that true? Is that what I mean? Is it the same in relationships, do you think?

SPEAKER_01 15:35

I think it is the same in relationships. I mean, it's very easy to spout out a great set of wonderful sounding values and words, but it's actually the actions that underpin those words that really uh are the test of that. And I think that in my experience, we can say one thing and we can do another, and it's that misalignment that I think does cause friction. And often in the heat of moment, it's very difficult to really know what is happening, but it's only afterwards when we realize that is really important to me, and it isn't being respected by the other person, and so what do I do with that? Do I try and address it and talk about it and communicate about it? Yes, I do, and I can influence with my sort of passion and conviction and heart for that to show how important it is to me. But ultimately, you know, we are two people and two people with potentially different values in certain areas.

Kate Daly 16:45

I like the idea that the communication is the important thing, though. You just said there that, you know, if I'm up against something and if I feel very strongly about something, my natural instinct is to communicate about it. And I think one of the things that I reflect on with this kind of process, whether it's amicables or whether it's something similar like mediation, you have an opportunity to keep communication flowing. And there are many other processes when you get divorced or separated, where that direct communication between you is discouraged or even, you know, stopped. And you know, I certainly remember when I was getting divorced, I was told, do not speak to your ex directly, do everything through the solicitor. I wonder to what extent that is really quite detrimental advice because ultimately the process ends, the professionals step away. And if you've got children or pets or people that you know you still have in common, there's going to be some need to continue to communicate. Even as I know we were talking about before we started, just the whole part of actually finalizing all of the financial agreements between you. It's great to get your order and it's all sealed, but then there's kind of monks, isn't there? A toing and froing, and that need for communication continues and may continue for the rest of your life. It doesn't have to, but sometimes it does. And to what extent do these kinds of processes where communication is encouraged, to what extent do you think that they are helpful versus likely to set off an unintended conflict?

SPEAKER_01 18:28

So from my perspective, communication is absolutely key to everything. And at the same time, I guess we have to know who we're communicating with and why we're communicating. So I think communication clears misunderstanding and and assumption. And I think it's a I I it was something that I found very difficult in the process, in the amicable process, because often I was feeling fury and I was feeling let down, and I was feeling indignant that what one thing was being said, and it, you know, I I had a lot of emotions. And at the same time, it wasn't going to help not to not to try and have some communication. And then it's a question of self-management. And let's remember, you know, we did choose to marry this person at one point. There are qualities in there that we can always find some common ground on. And that's, I think, the important part. And I love your point about children, even though we didn't have our own children together, there was, you know, a stepdaughter in that relationship who is so, so important to me. And if in doubt, I would always think of her. What would I like to tell her? What can I actually put my hand on heart about and tell her? So I can't think. And when you share a child, I'm sure that makes the process easier because you've got that child in the middle and it doesn't become you're doing both things for someone who you love rather than trying to win points with the other person, which I can guess can often get in the way.

Kate Daly 20:15

Is that answering your question? Yeah. I think also when you're you're talking there, I'm reflecting on this idea that you've mentioned a couple of times now, a very underrated skill, which is this element of emotional control and being able to respond rather than react. But there are, of course, in any divorce or separation, moments where, as you describe it, you can feel real fury, obviously, and you're let down, you're upset, something hasn't gone your way, someone said something that is incredibly triggering, whatever it is. So that it's really, I think it's helpful and useful to hear that even in a quote-unquote again, amicable divorce, it doesn't take that away. You're not signing up to just nodding along and agreeing to whatever's placed in front of you. You're having a robust debate about what's right for you as an individual and what's right for you from a couple dividing marital assets perspective. So I thought that was really interesting. But how do you learn these techniques? Do you think it's because you're a coach? Is it a facet of personality? Is it just a learnable skill? How do you get from react to respond? I'm still learning.

SPEAKER_01 21:30

Yeah, well, I'm rubbish.

Kate Daly 21:31

I'm asking self-interested question here because I am utterly rubbish. I am a very generally reactive person. So yeah.

SPEAKER_01 21:40

And there is something that I always, always recommend and I try and employ myself, which is ABC. A awareness. Oh, I can feel it rising. I can feel that feeling. I'm getting furious. B, breathe. Because when we breathe, we actually disconnect from the amygdala. Which is the survival part of our brain that is causing that triggering response or triggering reaction or feeling. And so we're disconnecting from that. And that gives us space, it gives us time. And then we can see, choose what do I want to align with here, which is why it's good to get an intention before a really important high-stakes meeting. You know, I want to hold on to X in this. And then you've got C, you've got somewhere to go. And then energy flows where the attention goes. I'm focusing on that. The actual fury or the original feeling has subsided. So ABC, it's it does work. It's worth trying out. And it's easy to remember.

Kate Daly 22:41

Yeah, it's a really nice tip. So that that do you think you go into some of these meetings when you're negotiating with a kind of a clear idea of what you want to stand for? Is that what helped you ultimately? Or did you go in with an idea of what you wanted out of it? So which was it? I like that.

SPEAKER_01 23:01

And it's again, it's not something I actually consciously thought about. I went in for what I wanted to stand for. I then realized that my ex, and of course, I know he's like this, and in our relationship, he was always the one who would be, you know, great at doing the numbers and doing the analysis and a very, very quick brain. I realized, you know, I have to be reasonable with myself here and sort of have a baseline that I would be prepared to accept. And at the same time, I was quite flexible with that baseline because I guess this is these are my values, what's important to me. And yes, fairness is an important value, but also being honest, having trust, and just keeping my sense of self were actually, from a long-term perspective, more important.

Kate Daly 24:00

And I guess one of the things that people often say to me as well is this idea that sometimes people feel pressure to make decisions in the moment, like you say, and particularly if there's an imbalance in people's abilities to kind of have a firm position in their mind or a key number in their mind versus someone who might be coming with a more flexible approach. And all of a sudden you're into a sort of a slightly horse trading type scenario. And I hear people a lot of the time say, but I can't make a decision in a meeting. How important is it to be able to go away and reflect? And how important is it to create a process where that's not seen as a negative thing, it's seen as part and parcel of, you know, good housekeeping on how you run things?

SPEAKER_01 24:45

Absolutely. I think it's essential. It is something that I can imagine. It happened with me, and I'm sure it happens a lot, that there's an a perceived inequality in people's abilities to calculate in the moment or or say something. And as time got on, I would feel more and more like, oh, I'm I'm I'm not quite sure what this means. And also, of course, we are in a survival mode. So my ability to think clearly was also quite compromised. So I think having that ability just to say, hey, I'm feeling overwhelmed here, I'm feeling triggered. I can't even assess that at the moment. Can we take a rain check or can we take a break, come back? I think that is just so helpful. Yeah.

Kate Daly 25:32

Yeah, I think you're right. I think it's like you say, it gives, because you are almost fight, flight, or freeze in some of those meetings, even when it's the best intention process and you've got, you know, the amicable sort of scaffolding around it. We have to be realistic about this. For most people, it's a deeply intense emotional experience. They're sitting with somebody that they're trying to negotiate with, and it might or may not be going the way they envisaged it. So it's a really big, overwhelming emotional experience. So just to be able to recognize that, to normalize that, and to give people the time to go away, reflect, stop that fight, flight, or freeze reaction, and just to be able to hold an idea in their heads without being under attack or observed even, it feels that that's a really important part of the process. Because I guess that's when you do start to connect to your values, isn't it? And then the sort of aftermath, because we talked about this before, didn't we? Where, you know, how do you mark the end or the transition of this? Because it's sometimes I think it's hard to know in a divorce what part marks the ending. Is it when the words I want a divorce or I'm divorcing you are first uttered? Is it when you physically move out? Is it when you get some random piece of paper from the court to say your divorce has been filed or your divorce is now finished? Is it the last point at which the final finances are sorted? It's kind of like when you build a house. I built a house a long time ago, and there was we never felt we'd finished it. We never had an end point. We didn't have the moment where we went, oh, we've done it, because there was, it just sort of ended in a bit of a blurry, well, there's still this to do, or there's still that to do, or this has gone wrong, so that's not quite finished, or it it never quite got finished. And I wonder if it isn't like that with divorce, and therefore, do we need to put in an ending? And is that ending, what is that about? Is that where you have the opportunity to rediscover your values, to challenge yourself on whether you've lived your values or whether those values are still relevant to you in this new sort of transformation?

SPEAKER_01 27:52

Yeah, I think that's probably personal to everybody, that point of what when it ends. And yeah, it's something I haven't even thought about. But if you ask me, do you think your divorce is over? I would say no, not yet, because there's still still certain elements that still need to happen. And I guess there's an energetic sense of completion, which we can manage because there's the external things about all the admin and all of that sort of thing, and then there's internal things and having a sense of maybe completion with ourselves.

Kate Daly 28:24

Did you kind of reaffirm your own values sort of through this process and as you come out the other side? Or was it less more of a reaffirmation, more of a just a reflection that you had lived those?

SPEAKER_01 28:39

I think I grew up a lot in the process, and I think I learned a lot, I think I grew a lot, I think I became a lot wiser. I'd still say it's it's early days for that, but I do think what is important about what you're saying is that it's important to check in with ourselves. It's important to, I think you used that word earlier, and I love to use it in coaching. We're accountable to ourselves, and particularly when there are children involved. It's really, this is not something that we I think helps to tuck it away, avoid it, numb it with parties, alcohol, whatever it may be. For me, it's something that will probably always be part of me now. The fact that I am no longer in this marriage. And I think it's our way of making that meaningful for us. I mean, there's a there's a lovely phrase, and I always get it wrong, but basically the senses, you know, in the darkest cave we find the most beautiful treasure. So what is the treasure? And I think one of the treasures that really came out for me is that I was brave. I was brave and I put myself first, and putting myself first is not something that had come easily to me and was not part of who I essentially am. So I think that has caused a whole sort of elevation of my sense of self from that. And that's very personal sharing, but I think it's probably the same for anyone when we go into these very often intense, traumatic, we have no idea what lies ahead. You know, we are we're putting ourselves on the line there, and um, I think we can't help but grow from that.

Kate Daly 30:40

In just a moment, Katie will share her top tips on how values can be helpful and grounding if you're struggling. And I know you wouldn't want to miss that. But just before she does, if this episode has given you a little bit of clarity or comfort or just a tip that's made things feel a little bit more manageable, make sure to follow the divorce podcast on your favorite podcast app. Each week we're here with expert advice and real support to help you through your separation or divorce one step at a time. Okay, Katie, final tips. If someone is struggling today, what's one grounding thought that can help bring them back to their values?

SPEAKER_01 31:20

So there's a couple. There's the ABC that I already shared. So A, awareness, B, breathe, and C, choose. And there's also the metaphor of a lamp. So if we think of a lamp and it has a flame, and just think, what are the things that really keep me alive? You know, light my spark? What are the things that I want to nurture and use those, put those things, those values could be in the middle of that flame. Then what's around that flame? There's protective glass. So who are the people? What are the behaviors that I need to protect and ensure that that flame keeps keeps alive?

Kate Daly 32:02

Keeps burning.

SPEAKER_01 32:03

Yeah, keeps burning. Exactly. The lantern can also have a handle. Handles get really hot when that flame is burning. So whenever I put that lantern down and I'm walking away from it, they're the red flags of what happens when I start to let go. What happens when I stop fanning the flames of my lantern? That's another thing. I can watch out. Those are my watch outs. So that's a nice way of just thinking about reminding yourself in the moment about, you know, keeping the flame berming, how can I protect that, and how to notice if I've let go of them. Brilliant. That's lovely.

Kate Daly 32:41

Thank you very much indeed. Where can people find out more about you?

SPEAKER_01 32:45

So, Katie Lancaster, and I've got a very easy website, which is Katie Lancaster Coaching, and also on LinkedIn, of course.

Kate Daly 32:56

Brilliant. Thank you. So, for separation and co-parenting support, you can visit amicable.co.uk where you can explore our resources or book a free advice consultation. You can find me on LinkedIn as well, and you can get in touch with us or listen to the podcast by visiting thedivorsepodcast.com or on your favourite listening platform. Finally, we'd love to know some feedback for you to share any questions on divorce or separation or co-parenting. So please get in touch at hello at amicable.co.uk. Thank you so much for joining me, Katie. It's been absolutely lovely talking to you. Thank you, everybody, for listening. Thank you, Kate.