What stepfamilies really need to thrive, with Stepmum Space

Becoming a step-mum comes with almost none of the roadmaps, support or community that biological mums get. If you're finding it harder than you expected, this episode will help you understand why - and what you can actually do about it. 

Kate is joined by Katie South, transformational coach and founder of Stepmum Space, to explore why stepfamilies struggle - and what it really takes to make them stronger. 

We talk about:

• Why advice like ‘love them as your own’ sets step-mums up to fail
• Why step-parents often feel powerless - and what to do about it' 
• How to have the important conversations early, before you're already deep in it
• The practical building blocks for creating stability and emotional safety at home

This episode is for anyone who is repartnering or has repartnered after separation, especially those navigating life as a step-parent or supporting a partner through it. 

Meet Katie South

Katie South is a UK-based transformational coach specialising in stepfamily dynamics and the relationship challenges that come after divorce. She is the founder of Stepmum Space, where she works with stepmums, divorced dads and step-couples navigating co-parenting conflict, boundary breakdown and emotional overload. 

Through her coaching and podcast, Stepmum Space, she helps couples move from blame and battle toward long-term stability. You can get in touch with Katie on her website. 

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Transcript

Kate Daly 0:05

Welcome to the Divorce Podcast, where we explore all aspects of ending relationships, separation, and parenting apart. If your marriage or partnership has ended, or you have friends and family who are separating, this podcast is for you. I'm Kate Daly, a relationship counsellor, divorce specialist, and co-founder of Amicable, the online legal service for separating couples. In each episode, we look at relationships and separation from different angles, including the emotional, legal, and social. I'm joined by experts and special guests who share their own unique stories, experience and tips with the goal of helping people end relationships in a kinder and better way. Becoming a step mum comes with almost none of the roadmap support or community that biological mums get. And I think it's about time we change that. So today I'm joined by Katie South, a transformational coach specialising in step-family dynamics and founder of Stepmum Space. We talk about why so much of the advice step mums receive is well-meaning but unhelpful. The control imbalance that so many step-parents experience, what dads can do to act as a bridge between both families, and the real building blocks for making a step family feel stable and strong. If you loved this episode, then please subscribe and rate us on your preferred listening platform. Welcome, Katie.

SPEAKER_00 1:35

Hi, Kate. Thank you so much for having me.

Kate Daly 1:37

It's an absolute pleasure, and I'm really excited to talk about this because, as I think we'll come on to discuss, it is a space that is very underserved and there's not a lot talked about, and yet it's such a big transformation. So I'm super excited to have you and to dig into what makes step families much stronger. But before we get into the meat of it, it'd be really interesting to find out how you came into this space. So, how did your career lead you here?

SPEAKER_00 2:05

Yeah, absolutely. So I've been coaching and mentoring for years. And about 12 years ago now, I met my husband. I was with a three-year-old in tow from my previous marriage. He had two girls, and they're about three and six at the time. And if I'm really honest, I went into it spectacularly naively, thinking, I love kids, kids love me, this is gonna be great. You know, I knew there would be tensions with exes on both sides. I wasn't kind of oblivious to that, but I didn't really understand the complexity that would come up, both practical, but more importantly, and it transpired more difficultly emotionally. And then from there, I really wanted to access more support for myself and couldn't find any aside from well-meaning, but really not psychologically sound literature, which said kind of love them as your own and everything will be fine, give it time. And that advice, it's not very good, to be honest. And that really led me down the path of creating stepmum space, first the podcast after I did a podcast with the BBC as well, and then creating this real platform for women and then fathers and step couples to find space where we can support them and help them understand the structural reality of a step family and how it's different to a first family and then what that means for them, their children and their families. Oh, that's super interesting.

Kate Daly 3:36

You mentioned there that you know there's a lot of well-meaning advice, but it's pretty pants and rubbish. So, what do you think it misses when you say to somebody, oh, give it time, or oh, love them as your own? What are the structural things then? Let's break this down.

SPEAKER_00 3:52

So the biggest one is the recognition and understanding that a second family is different from a first family. And it might sound really, really obvious, but it's something that I think we really miss and we do a disservice to everybody in it, adults and children, by pretending it's the same. So advice such as love them as your own is not helpful because they're not your own. They're not, you can't, can you? It's not the same. Yeah. It's not the same. And more importantly, structurally and systemically, it puts the pressure on the stepmum. So the stepmum is then told, love them as your own, but actually you're not allowed to really treat them as your own because there are, and obviously all families are different, but there are very specific areas that are real no-go zones for a lot of step-mums, discipline, opinions, you know, boundaries, rules, those types of things. So you're really setting a woman up to fail by saying love them as your own or other things like that, because actually it's not possible. And then, of course, the worst part is when women raise this, they frequently are told, Well, you knew what you were getting into.

Kate Daly 5:07

Right. Oh, God, that's just awful, isn't it?

SPEAKER_00 5:10

It's awful, isn't it? Because no one would say to a biological mum or an adoptive mum, if they if they were kind of raising some worries or concerns, no one would say, Well, you knew what you were getting into when you got pregnant. But it's it's that part that's really difficult. And I think as well, you know, in a first family, you, the parents, are really the leaders of the family. They make the decisions, and the hierarchy works fairly simply. Parents at the top and children underneath. When you kind of bring two families together, that hierarchy is really confused. Um, it can depend on all sorts of different things. So it puts everybody in a difficult position, particularly if you don't name it and if you don't address it. And I think a lot of the time people are so keen to stabilize, almost overstabilize, and not allow any kind of difficult conversations to get to that point. I guess as well.

Kate Daly 6:09

It's coming from a position of you want to try and make the new family equal in some way to the previous setup that you had. So the kind of general feeling must be, oh, well, let's just pretend it's as good or as it's it's as okay as the other one was, without, as you say, giving the time and space. You've got to reform it, haven't you? And all of a sudden, there are presumably stages and phases to go as the different members of the family get to know each other, get to bond, get to form those bonds, get to spend sufficient time in a group and in solo settings. So I I can imagine that there's a well-meaning intention of wanting everything to be fine and equal versus actually getting to grips with the huge kind of psychological tasks that are going on, both at an individual and a group dynamic level.

SPEAKER_00 6:59

Yeah, 100%. And that's the same for children and for adults. And, you know, children go through huge changes. And I think we have a lot of resources to help children with that, although, in my opinion, not enough, but there are some, and we acknowledge that, you know, repartnering and bringing families together is difficult for children. I think what I've found over the last decade in this space is that the understanding, societal understanding that's available for stepmums is so low that so many women sit in shame because they don't want to speak out. It's like before we recognize postnatal depression, you know, and women don't want to say, I'm finding this really difficult. You've also got the issue that in a first family, generally everyone wants it to succeed. In a second family, there might be a her ex on the side who may not be wishing you well for potentially very understandable reasons. But what I see a lot of is then that dripping into the children. The children struggle to settle in the new house. They have a real loyalty bind with mum, and even liking the stepmum feels like a betrayal. So it's those really complex psychological ties and systemic issues that make it so much harder for stepfamilies to form and really thrive. Yeah.

Kate Daly 8:27

And I guess as well, there's this kind of feeling that as a stepmum, you are responsible. There's a great deal of responsibility because there's a you if you're the mum going into the part of the family where there's dad and two children or however many children, then if it doesn't work, it's down to you. And I guess as women, we tend to take on that responsibility and wear it almost quite comfortably, don't we? Well, because we almost want to feel that it is within our power to create the happy, nurtured family. And therefore, if it doesn't succeed immediately, I imagine that dense confidence. It, like you say, you spiral into shame, you feel the failings and all of that kind of stuff. And it feels that society is perfectly happy to let you take that. And we have a long historical negative narrative around stepmums.

SPEAKER_00 9:20

Yeah. Oh my goodness, the cultural narrative that you're already pushing up against is insane. And there's a couple of things that I wanted to circle back to that you said. So, firstly, when you talked about responsibility, like, bang on, that is one of the number one things that causes trouble for stepmums. I call it a control imbalance. So you're in this environment where you actually've got really high responsibility, but you've got really low control. So, what that means is that actually there may be somebody else controlling a diary. There may have been a custody schedule agreed before you entered the relationship. There may be all these practical things and also all these emotional things. Like you cannot control what mum says about you in the other house. You can't. But but the impact of that is felt really heavily in your home. So that imbalance is something that women really struggle with. And a lot of the work I do with women is focused around getting really clear on what is within your control and what you need to let go of and then how you do that. Because so many women, and the women I see most in my practice, they are high-achieving, high-performing women who all their lives and all their careers have been work hard and I'll, you know, put in the effort and it'll pay off. And then suddenly they get into this situation and you can't, and they're working so hard. And like you say, taking all the responsibility, you know, I should be able to fix this, I should be able to make it work. I can't tell you how many women say to me, like, but I should be able to fix this. And, you know, it's not always that easy.

Kate Daly 11:03

It's very hard, isn't it, as a parent, to stand back and not be able to fix stuff. Um, when it's kids that you care about, whether they're your kids or or not. It's very difficult when you're in that role to allow things to fail and to be a bystander in that scenario, isn't it? It's the same when you're bringing up kids and that your kids get older and you want to get to a point where you're not going to pick up the pieces, and that means some pretty painful things for them to discover. It's excruciating doing that. So I imagine it's the same feeling, isn't it? That you at some point you have to row back and allow things to unfold, even if that means you don't get the outcome you want or feel you deserve.

SPEAKER_00 11:44

Yeah, it is and it isn't. So what uh you know, and I can speak as someone who has biological children. And sometimes I will say things to them, you know, I'll say to my daughter, she's eight, nearly, and she'll be complaining about something, and I'll just say, Well, I don't really care if you don't like it. That's the way it is. You've got to eat your healthy food before you can have anything else. And I feel no guilt about it at all because I'm really confident that's the right thing for me to do. What a lot of stepmums feel is that they have to run everything through a kind of, is this my role filter before they say it. And then they'll say something, and then for the rest of the week, was I too harsh? Was I, you know, should I have been softer? Did I do the right thing? Should I sit back and watch them fail? Or should I leap in and save them? And and aside from all that critique in yourself, which as women we're fantastic at doing, you quite often have the other family sending you a unwanted performance review via text message.

Kate Daly 12:48

Yes. And let's say a little bit more about the uh unwanted performance reviews then. So what do you often see um in the families that you help?

SPEAKER_00 12:59

Uh, for my stepmums, Sunday night is a real Oh, yeah, I can imagine.

Kate Daly 13:04

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 13:05

So obviously all families are different, but the majority of women I work with don't have their stepchildren full time. So there are transitions. And one of those key transitions is stepkids go home, often on a Sunday night, and the text review starts ping, ping, pring, the phone. And it's, you know, it can be all sorts of things. I've had women corrected on grammar, you know, told off for, you know, my child shouldn't be wearing this particular t-shirt. We're not talking about big cultural or you know, philosophical beliefs, and it feels like nitpicking. And I want to acknowledge as a wider frame to this whole conversation, it's really hard to share your kids. Like it's really hard. I do it with one of my children, and I think for most biological mums, it's painful however you got into it. It's not what you sort of think you'll be happen will be happening when you have kids. But a lot of the pickiness does not necessarily come from a place of care. It does come from a place of trying to destabilize the other family. And I think by the way that we almost pit mums and step-mums against each other societally doesn't really help because when you're in that situation, again, it feels too taboo to speak up about it. But actually, it's hard for everyone. And you know, going into it, going into that, I went in with the view of, you know, hopefully me and my husband's ex can be friends and we can get on. And I've never met a stepmum actually who goes in with any other agenda, but for most people, it doesn't work and it can be really difficult. And the step mums I see will feel incredibly destabilized by it because they're trying and trying and trying, and they're being pulled down by somebody who has a massive impact on their home.

Kate Daly 15:10

And do you think that's a question then of us because I was about to say, well, and what can you do about that? So is it what can you do about that? Are there some tips about going in as the second wife that are useful? Or is it a or is that to miss the point completely and to say it's not about how you go in, it's about acknowledging that dynamic and understanding that whatever you do or say, you might have zero impact and therefore you shouldn't bother.

SPEAKER_00 15:44

So which which is it? I'm gonna be really annoying and sit on the fence. So it's kind of both, right? So I think the the really important things that you can do when you go in, number one, get clear about what you want your role to be. So when you say that, who are you getting clear with?

Kate Daly 16:00

So with your partner. So the the key, key thing here is to get your partner on board. Yeah. And yet I'm gonna be really sexist here and say most men will not want to have that conversation and will fly back with you're overcomplicating this, just see how it goes, just don't put any pressure on anybody. It's not that bad. I get that all of the time. So you you get you get the whole, this is just you're making too much of this. So the desire to have the conversation, you're almost falling at the first hurdle. So when do you have it? It must be quite early on in the relationship, I guess.

SPEAKER_00 16:38

Well, I think a lot of the time people go in again with the right intentions. Oh, let's not meet the kids until we know it's really, really serious. And you know, there are all sorts of sensible reasons for doing that. But invariably, then what happens is you don't get to see what your partner's like as a father until actually you've got quite a separate relationship, just the two of you. And that's a really weird transition. So, again, like in a first family, you experience it all together at the same speed. So that, you know, when I'm saying like clarify your role, I guess up front is those conversations about well, what what do you see me being? Is it like a friend to your kids? Do you am I gonna be doing their laundry? Like, you know, the real basics around that. And then I think I always say to women when you're dating someone, find out what their relationship's like with their ex. Because honestly, if it's horrific, you've got to think twice before you go there. It's it's a lot, it's a lot for women to carry. And I think your point around, you know, men, I'm gonna say it, men listening won't like it, but hiding from those difficult conversations, you know. I work with a lot of men as well. And the most common feeling I have is I'm stuck in the middle between my kids and my partner. And they'll say, Whatever I do, I'll upset someone. So what do they do? Nothing. And then they upset everyone. So, you know, that for dads, that role is crucial. Like I know we talk about stepmums, but for dads, that role of leading that family is so important because when they say, Oh, I'm just gonna stay out of it, the stepmum is the one who picks up the emotional labour.

Kate Daly 18:16

Yeah. And it's abdicating any responsibility, it's their kids, it's their family. I think you talk about it as acting as a bridge, don't you? So to speak a bit more about that, what can a dad in that scenario, what would you want a dad behaving well to do?

SPEAKER_00 18:33

So I always call the dads the bridge because they're in the middle, and obviously, if they're standing on their own, they're not doing anything. If they can bridge, then they allow everybody to meet. Now, the common things I see, guilt-led parenting. Oh, I only see my kids every other weekend. I don't want to tell them off. Dads need to really step up and parent. You know, they need to do that. It's also not fair on their ex-wife to expect her to do all the difficult work. Dads need to lean into hard conversations, be that with their ex, be that with their partner, or be that with their children. So, of course, it's about having empathy for children and understanding you don't have to like your stepmum, but the way that I hear women spoken to in their own homes is not acceptable. And there's a difference between trying to force, you know, a stepmum onto a child versus teaching your kids basic respect. And then the the other main thing I would say to dads is you may not be able to keep everyone happy. You might have to get comfortable with that, and you might have to, because you're not going to be able the whole time to keep your kids happy, your ex-happy, and your new partner happy. And I see a lot of men doing what I call operating a first family survival strategy in their second marriage. So not wanting to upset the ex-wife, usually because the fear is I'll lose my kids. And so, because of that, they will sometimes prioritize that relationship with the ex, even subconsciously, because they want it to feel easy. And the person who you love will generally suck up a bit more than your ex-wife.

Kate Daly 20:14

That's so interesting. I love the analogy of the bridge because I think it's a really strong one, isn't it? Because you have got, I you, you know, you do hear that feeling of being stuck in the middle when it's dads in that scenario. I don't know, I I I see a lot more dads wanting to be a lot more involved. So I'm kind of optimistic that that will start to change. And I know there are a lot of very involved dads who take this role very seriously. So I don't want to undermine that. But it and we are generalizing, which is always you can always be critiqued for. But it it does feel like that's a very true pattern, and to gloss over it and say, well, everyone can be really good at everything, it feels like we'd miss the point rather. So, but I love the analogy of the bridge because what a powerful role you can play if you are a bridge, but it does require perhaps working in a different way to the way that you worked even in the first relationship and the first family by taking more of an active, conscious role and stepping up and and and being the person who can, as you say, lead both families.

SPEAKER_00 21:18

Yeah, you've got to you've got to take on that leadership role as a dad. You've also got to put your couple at the center. And a lot of dads will see that as all I've got to choose between my partner and my kids. I hear that I don't want to have to choose. And nobody's saying you have to choose, but what you can't end up is in a triangle with them. That's no use to anybody. So that leadership piece is really important for dads. And I think it gives them a really good opportunity to role model for their kids.

Kate Daly 21:47

So I'm going to move on to sort of some of the good strategies in a minute, but just before we we move into that direction, let's just park once and for all. What are some of the typical sort of errors or mistakes that people? Make when they're blending and stepping families.

SPEAKER_00 22:04

Okay, so shall I tell you about my aversion to the word blending? Okay, yeah, go for it. Should I do that? Yeah, do it now. Call me out on it. So the word blending is it's so nice, isn't it? And we all want a blended family. I passionately believe families should use whatever language works for them. My personal feeling about the word blending is that it takes a child out of their first family and sort of tries to blend them into a second one. And then possibly more, what has more impact on the families I work with is it forces the stepmother to be the blender. And it signifies like this end result of a happy blended family rather than the difference of a stepfamily system.

Kate Daly 23:01

So I don't want to sound like an English teacher, but um no, I think getting the language right is really important and it's a it's not a perspective I've heard before. So I'm super grateful for you for bringing it up because I hadn't thought of it in that way at all before. We use the term blended because we are doing things amicably and we like to be nice. So, you know, we are trying to encourage, and but this is very interesting because sometimes the language will be, as you say, setting expectations and defining outcomes unconsciously and by accident.

SPEAKER_00 23:36

So And what I get a lot of women saying to me is, Well, I I've been really trying to blend my family, but I failed.

Kate Daly 23:43

Right. Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 23:45

And actually, what really has happened is that it's a step family that's having some bumps, that's, you know, encountering some very understandable structural issues. And for me, that word blending uh really oversimplifies the system that we're operating in. So again, families should use whatever works for them, but for me, it's a little bit simplistic.

Kate Daly 24:12

So getting the language right is important, clearly. What else are the common mistakes that people make and get wrong?

SPEAKER_00 24:19

So I would say the just expecting things to be okay. So it's widely quoted that step families take a lot longer to form than first families, and that's true. But that doesn't mean that just giving it time is the only thing that you can do. So I think that, you know, that's one part of it. Treating your stepfamily as a first family, don't do that. It's a completely different system, structurally, psychologically, everything like that.

Kate Daly 24:49

So it sounds like owning the difference is really important here, not trying to gloss over and equalize by saying, I'm going to make this family as important, because they are both equally important, but they can look structurally and interrelationally very different and still be both important.

SPEAKER_00 25:06

Is that yeah, exactly. You know, we'd never say to a child, we've got to love your stepmum the same as you love your mum. So we shouldn't be saying to stepmums, you've got to love your stepkids the same as your biological kids. Again, that misses, you know, our our meet women who'll say, I absolutely adore my stepkids, but I just don't feel the same about them as my own kids, and they're racked with guilt. Well, it's completely normal that you wouldn't. So I think, you know, normalizing that, and that helps for children as well to understand Zoe can still really, really, really love you, but it's a little bit different because she didn't know you since you were born, or you know, whatever that might be. So that part is really important. The role of the dad, we've talked about that. I think the way you manage the other house is critical. So say more about that then. Well, so you know, we're I've had people on my podcast who are great friends with the ex, and everything works swimmingly, and they go on holiday together, and isn't it wonderful to the most high conflict of situations, which I just think is horrific for the children. So I think, you know, I'll use the word amicable because I think it nails it as much as you can be amicable with the other house, the better. You know, ideally, you don't want the children to hear you undermine the other house. You don't want them to hear you say what you really might think about their mum. You know, all of that's really, really hard. But as much as you can, you have to kind of just try and let your emotions out somewhere else. And, you know, everyone's mucked up on this at some point, nobody's perfect, and say, as well, there's generally a pattern where divorced parents have a just a bit more of an acute sense about the balance that you have to tread when you're dealing with an ex. And I do see a lot of women who haven't had a child with somebody else before who would like to maybe be a little bit more gung-ho in communication, and a lot of dads I see who are like, oh, I just know how to manage my ex. But so, so there's a lot of right, how do we deal with the other house? What's acceptable? What changes in the schedule are acceptable? When, you know, how do we work holidays? Some people like to plan really far out, some people don't. So those like building blocks of just your practical life are really important. And then there's obviously the emotional part of how much do you let the noise from the other home come into your home? And that gets really complicated, like when children get mobile phones and you know, the smartphone is like such a problem for step families and the amount of women who get recorded and taken back to mum's house, and you know, it's it's a minefield. So, yeah, I would say just try and really keep your couple at the center, over-communicate as a couple, over-communicate with your children, really listen to them, help them build your family, but while still retaining their role as children, you know, it's really important that children have time with just the biological parent. That's so important. And ironically, most step mums really want that, and it's most dads who want the stepmum there.

Kate Daly 28:35

Yeah, I can imagine, yeah. In just a moment, I'm going to ask you to share your top tips on how to make your step family stronger. But before that, if people listening, if this episode has given you a bit of clarity or comfort, or just a tip that's made things feel a bit more manageable, please make sure to follow the divorce podcast on your favorite podcast app. Each week we're here with real expert advice and support to help you through your separation one step at a time. Okay then, Katie. So final top tips on the more positive side. How can you help your stepfamily to really prosper? What are the key things that you can do?

SPEAKER_00 29:20

So, stepfamilies do not fail because people aren't trying hard enough. They completely destabilize when belonging, emotional safety, control, and alignment are missing. So, number one, support the stepmum first. If you can support the stepmum, the couple will stabilize and the family will stabilize. That is something that is the same as in first families. We really recognise the importance of supporting new mums, yet we just leave stepmums to flounder. You knew what you were getting into.

Kate Daly 29:52

Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. So it's kind of like put your own oxygen mask on first, isn't it? So you've stabilised the couple, so then you've got resource to be able to stabilize the family.

SPEAKER_00 30:03

Yeah. Don't shame your feelings. Sometimes people don't like their stepkids. I said it, you know. Sometimes they don't. They you you love this man, but you might not like his kids. That's that's okay. Like you don't have to love them. You have to help create a home where they're safe and they're cared for and they're looked after and they're well treated. But you don't have to deeply love them. Actually, it grows. You wouldn't expect somebody to just love a child they'd met that day. So give that love time and don't shame yourself because you don't feel it. I would say for stepmums, like really, actually for all the family, really check in on your well-being and how you're feeling. Most of the situations that reach me have come because of a crisis point. But normally, crisis points don't just happen, like they build and they build and they build. And so regular communication, regular check-ins, loads of my families do family meetings, which I love, like get the kids involved in ideas and you know, help them because kids have so little control when their parents get divorced. Like it's so hard for them. And then to suddenly be in this new family that maybe mummy isn't very happy about, it can be like so hard for them. So create space for them and and their feelings as well is really important. And then understand that it's a work in progress.

Kate Daly 31:34

Yes, like everything. I think there's there is a real sense of impatience, isn't there, to get it all done and official and above board, and then we're done. We're now a step family, and and you're right, it's that acceptance that it might take several years before it feels stable.

SPEAKER_00 31:52

Yeah, and then even then things will come up, you know, that different weddings, becoming a stepgranny, you know, there's there's so And kids change all the time, don't they?

Kate Daly 32:02

And they might be perfectly lovely when you meet them, and then they'll hit the teenage years, and you really might not want to see as much of them if you could possibly help it on all sides.

SPEAKER_00 32:13

Yeah, and and when you've got, I'm really lucky, the teenagers in my life are actually genuinely lovely. But when you've got like a difficult teenager, if they're yours biologically, at least you've got, you know, you still love them. But when they're not, you don't have that. And I think as well for dads to, you know, me and my husband, we we reflect on this quite a lot because we have two children together. And if we've had a tough day with them, we both sit down at the end of the day and we're like, oh, what a nightmare day we've had. They have just been awful, weren't they? Horrors, and we have a laugh about it. But before we had children of our own, if one of us said anything negative about the other one's child, we would rush to their defense because you, you know, you feel like you can't say that about somebody else's child. So I think it's important for the biological parent, in this case, often the dad, to understand just because your partner's found a kid annoying, it doesn't mean she doesn't like him.

Kate Daly 33:14

Yeah. Super interesting.

SPEAKER_00 33:17

Yeah, it's and there's more and more stepfamilies forming day by day. So we have to create more spaces for women and men to be able to talk about this stuff because the men I see, brilliant, brilliant men who want to do the best thing for their families, but just feel stuck everywhere they go. Yeah.

Kate Daly 33:35

And helpless by the sound of it, like they have nothing in the kit bag because we don't talk about it very often, do we? And that's what I was thinking when you were saying, I know you see families that are often in crisis or that have bought you, you know, got to a point of they want, need, desperately need outside help. But wouldn't it be amazing if this was just more normal? And, you know, as step families formed, it was perfectly normal to go and have a facilitated session with some or all of the family members to sort of talk about how it's going to look and to have some of those conversations because they're quite hard conversations to have sometimes, aren't they? And I guess as the new girlfriend slash partner slash wife, what point do you have that conversation? And it really struck me what you're saying before about you could be well deep into a relationship before you've even understood what this person's like as a dad and what their ex is like. So, and by then you're you're already in it, aren't you? You're already in it, exactly. It's a breakup, then isn't it? It's not just I'm dating and I'm testing this out, so let's see how it goes. It's become more enmeshed, more formalized. It's it's messy then. So I thought that was super interesting.

SPEAKER_00 34:49

It is interesting what you say. So I I I work with a few families that we've likened it to a bit like NCT, but for step families. So in the really early stages who are emotionally aware enough to say, like, this is going to be a bit complicated. They might have seen other people go through it and will work from the beginning. And that gives you such a good grounding because you both know where you are and you're having those conversations because you're right. Nobody talks about it. And for the most part, you know, women becoming biological or adoptive mothers have a lot more by way of roadmaps, support, understanding, podcasts, you know, the whole lot. So yeah, it it would be a dream for there to be more support.

Kate Daly 35:33

Well, this is the start. So you've uh you've raised the flag again, haven't you, by talking about this? So I want to thank you very much for that. But where can people find out more information about the work that you do and about you in general?

SPEAKER_00 35:48

Yeah, so everything that we do is at stepmumspace.com and you can listen to the Stepmum Space podcast wherever you get podcasts. And we have conversations with stepmums, dads, all sorts of experts. So yeah, come and find us.

Kate Daly 36:03

Brilliant. And then, like you say, it's not just about the mums, is it? It's about the dads and maybe listening in on some of those conversations. That's a good first step, isn't it? Almost.

SPEAKER_00 36:12

Yeah, definitely. I think what a lot of people find, or what I hear a lot of women say, is actually hearing the podcasts help give them the language to talk to their partner, or they've sent it to their partner to listen to because it's less emotionally charged when it comes from a third person.

Kate Daly 36:28

Yeah, exactly. Exactly that. That's that's a really good point. Yeah. So thank you for having me. It's been brilliant. If you're looking for more general separation and co-parenting support, you can visit amicable.co.uk where you can find and explore our resources or book a free advice consultation. And you can find me on LinkedIn, hear about new podcast episodes by subscribing for updates and visiting thedivorsepodcast.com or on your favourite listening platform. And finally, don't forget we'd love to hear from you. We'd love to know how we can help further. So please share any questions or ideas for episodes with us at hello at amicable.co.uk. Katie, it's been an absolute joy talking to you. Thank you very much indeed for coming on and talking about Step Families. Thank you so much for having me. Pleasure. And thank you, everyone, for listening.