In brief: What to read with your child when your family changes

Think of every picture book your child has ever loved. How many show a family going through separation? Almost none - so what does that silence tell a child whose reality looks very different? 

Kate is joined by Elizabeth Rudnick, whose picture book First Night at Dad's was born from her own experience of separation. Together they explore the gap in children's literature around divorce, why the right story can make a real difference - and how to start the conversations that matter most.

We talk about:

• Elizabeth's personal story of separation and what it taught her about how children process change 
• Why so few children's books reflect the reality of separated families 
• The milestones we forget to mark - why a child's first night at dad's deserves the same acknowledgement as their first steps 
• Why the right book helps both child and parent through a tricky moment together 
• Practical tips for talking to your children about separation in an age-appropriate way

This episode is for any parent who wants to support their child through separation but isn't sure where to start - and for anyone who works with or cares for children going through family change. 

Meet Elizabeth Rudnick

Elizabeth Rudnick has worked in publishing for over two decades as a writer, editor, and agent. She has written more than thirty books including the Young Adult novel Tweet Heart, as well as numerous bestselling Disney novelisations such as Cinderella, Frozen, Moana, and Beauty and the Beast. First Night at Dad's is her first original picture-book. Elizabeth lives in North Carolina, with her son and their dog.

You can find First Night at Dad's on Amazon, and you can get in touch with Elizabeth on her website or on Instagram.

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Transcript

SPEAKER_01 0:00

Message that I want it to be is that you can get sad and you can feel like the world is falling apart around you, but there's love there. You just have to look for it. And it's and you know, the hope, my hope, is that it's this idea that, you know, I think we all think, oh, you get divorced, a family split splits, and that means love's different and it's all smaller. And really, it's about the fact that love actually multiplies when you have this kind of it can. And if you look for it, there are ways to see that.

Kate Daly 0:27

Welcome to the Divorce Podcast, where we explore relationships, divorce, separation, and parenting apart. This episode is part of our mini-series where we answer your questions, discuss current news and events, and share practical bite-size tips. I'm your host, Kate Daly, a relationship counsellor, divorce specialist, and co-founder of Amitable, the online legal service for separating couples. This week, I'm delighted to be joined by writer Elizabeth Rudley to talk about her new picture book, First Night of Dad. And why there's a real need for children's books that unpack parental separation. If you know somebody, a friend, a colleague, or a family member who would really benefit from this episode, hit the share button. Welcome, Elizabeth. Thank you so much for having me. It's lovely to see you and lovely to meet you. And I have to say, first of all, congratulations. What a beautiful picture book you have written. It is amazing. I absolutely enjoyed reading it, and I wish it had been around all those years ago when my kids were young enough to enjoy it. But that said, the whole purpose of this episode is to expose what an amazing book it is and to talk about who might benefit from reading it. So just before we get into all of that, just briefly share your own experience of separation and what it was that made you realize how children process family change.

SPEAKER_01 1:50

Yes. Well, my separation story, I got separated and divorced during COVID. So it brought with it its own set of traumas and different things that I think probably are. I don't think my experience was like everyone else's experience. I think every experience is unique, but it was definitely the tensions were heightened, the moments were heightened, and it was, and the emotions, especially of my son, were heightened because the world was already falling apart outside. And then in some ways it was starting to fall apart inside in this small space. And I think it was almost a blessing and a curse. So I feel like that I kind of sometimes look at it as a silver lining because my divorce was not sudden. There was no, um I didn't wake up one day and say, oh, this is over. I had sort of, it had been the writing had been on the wall. And I think my son even had started to kind of pick up on it. And I think that's when I realized it was important to make a change because it was starting to impact a child who was very young at the time. But I think children are far more aware and take on a lot more than we think. And it was, I think they always want to be the protect, even though it's our job as parents to protect them. I think they often want to take the role of protecting. And I saw a lot of that starting to happen and I just knew it was time. And I will say that we had separated several times before. So it wasn't this sudden, oh my gosh, your father is no longer in the home. But because the world had suddenly closed down, what had happened though was that we had a pod of people that we had decided to kind of just be with and, you know, hunker down with. And that was a really wonderful experience because it allowed my son to have this group, very small group of my friends and their children. And I think it allowed him to navigate it a little bit better because he felt so supported in a way. And they, you know, while none of them have been through divorce, they offer different language to help me as I was trying to help him figure it out. So I think I learned a lot in that, in that my son is probably more emotionally intelligent than most than I was during it. I mean, he was so brave and strong. And I think we don't tend to realize how strong they can be and how I think we try to fight so hard to stay because we think it's what we're supposed to do for the kids. And yet I think, you know, ultimately it was the best thing for my child to have this change.

Kate Daly 4:08

So yeah, it's funny, isn't it? Because I do think there's a lot of pressure on us as parents to stay together for the sake of the children. We hear that a lot, certainly in the work that we do. But like you say, actually, sometimes they are, even if they don't have the language for it, they can understand that not all relationships are going to work in the way they might want them to. And they can understand, I think sometimes the difference in what they want, which is mummy and daddy to stay together on what's realistic, given what they experience, because they pick up on the vibe, they pick up on the things that aren't said. It's not about rowing in front of your kids. We all know that that's not a good thing. But it's not even that, is it? Because it's fine to row as long as your kids see you make up. It's the dysfunctional relationship element that actually really impacts children. And in some cases, it role models to them what relationships are all about. And I think that's the bit for me that makes it easier to let go of a relationship is that I don't want my kids to think that this is normal. They have to settle for, this is normal, this is what you do. Right. It's not.

SPEAKER_01 5:14

Or this is how you communicate. I mean, it was starting. I never want my child to ever think that that's what really a working relationship is.

Kate Daly 5:22

And so yeah, I think we're aspiring to more for our kids ultimately, aren't we? When we make that decision to say, actually, I I'm gonna stop role modeling this and I'm gonna show them something different and show and show them something brave because I yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_01 5:34

I do think it's brave. And I think, and I think making that decision because society does so often want to say, you do it for the children, we have to stay in it. You have to, it's, but that's not the not always the case. And I think my child and I really it was eye-opening to see how maturely he could handle it. I don't necessarily know if every child is like this, but I do think that there, we don't always give kids the credit they deserve when it comes to being able to process these big emotions. And I think it also taught me to it's okay to have these big emotions and he's gonna go through these big emotions. And I was going through big emotions and how if I'm as an adult, you know, trying to navigate that, how can this poor kid who's doesn't have the toolkit yet to do that? Like, what is he gonna do with this? And that was part of, you know, why I wish there was a book, because while I was trying to figure my own stuff out, I knew I needed to help him and I just didn't have the toolkit, you know, to do that necessarily. I had, you know, I immediately he I got him a counselor because he I think needed and wanted someone to talk to that was safe and that was neutral and that he could feel confide in because I never wanted him to feel like he was picking sides or if but you know, I think also picture books and stories that where kids see themselves in the book on the page is so helpful.

Kate Daly 6:50

Well, that's the thing. I don't know about you, but when mine were little and I was going through, I really struggled to find something that really properly resonated. But you know, I read your book and it's lovely and it does, it really does resonate. So, what is the gap? Why is there such a gap? You must have obviously felt that you struggled just the same to try and find something to read and to normalize what was happening. So, what happened?

SPEAKER_01 7:15

I think that it goes back to what we were saying about how society kind of picks these. I I do think sadly, even though it is not unusual and uncommon now for people to get divorced. I think there is a stigma still kind of put into that. And everyone wants, I mean, in storybooks and everything, that happily ever after is always included the two parents and the child and you know, or the 2.5 children and the two dogs and the white picket fence. And I think that also it goes to the fact that we, I think, as adults, just never realized how much kids can take in. And I think we were scared to give it to them because we didn't know if they could handle that. But I think we need to trust that children can handle those emotions and that they need it. They need to feel, I think one of the biggest things that comes out of divorce is that lack of control and for a child. And when they can find that control through a picture book, through a novel, through a television show that shows their life. I think it makes them feel seen. It makes them feel like they can control the situation a little bit better. And that's so important to them. And I just think as a society, we've just been away scared to kind of tap into those emotions, those big darker milestones, I guess. Like grief is really hard. There's some beautiful books out there that can, you know, for the younger audience that are starting to come out more. But I think for a while it was like, we only want to share happy things with the kids, or we're not sure that they can process this, or you know, or we wrote books that were, like you said, just sort of silly, or they were really too on the nose, or they were written more for the adult. I think there's been a shift in picture books, especially where we're writing to the kid as well. And and a great picture book is one that both a child and a kid can enjoy together. But I think for a while there was that disconnect. And so a parent would buy the book maybe, but it wouldn't be something that would resonate with the kid.

Kate Daly 9:10

Yeah, I did that a lot. I found books that I liked, and the kids are just like, wow, read that.

SPEAKER_01 9:14

And it's just like, okay.

Kate Daly 9:16

But there wasn't much else there.

SPEAKER_01 9:17

I mean, that was also there wasn't really a choice. And I think, you know, for something like First Night at Dad's, I really want it to be something like you that isn't for just the child who's going through the divorce or just the parent who's going through the separation, but rather anyone who needs the language to talk to and and and to understand because it's a really lonely thing. I mean, I'm sure as you've been through it, like getting divorced is really lonely. And when I got divorced, I was the only one of my core group of people who'd ever been divorced. I'm still one of the only ones, oddly. And um, even though the odds should be here, but it was a really lonely thing and to not have, and I think it was very lonely for my son too, because he felt like he was the only one that was going through what we were going through. And it was really important for me to let him know that he wasn't alone. So even though this book unfortunately came out after this all went out, I want, I don't want other children to feel like that because I think it is really, and I don't want parents to feel that way. It's so tough. And we're so prepped to do those special milestones. Like we're so excited about walking, the first walk or the first word or the first, you know, food, real food that they eat. But like there are other really big milestones that aren't always super happy, but they need to be addressed. You know.

Kate Daly 10:33

Um, that was what's and I guess I what do you say to people who would say, well, you know, it's written from a certain perspective. It's the first night at dad's, not the first night at mom's. What if you're sharing care? What about the sort of those sorts of criticisms?

SPEAKER_01 10:48

I think it's meant to be. Obviously, it is, yes, it's written from a little boy's point of view, going to his dad's, but it's a universal lesson is what the language and and the, you know, just the little things, the little I try not to because I don't want to be didactic. And I want this to be a book that, you know, you can, it's just a lovely picture book too. It could be about, you know, used if you're going to a sleepover at your friend's house and you're nervous about like what it's going to be like, you know, or if my son was going to his grandparents for the first time, you know, like there are things I think that we as co-parents, as parents, as friends of parents, as grandparents, it's important to see that little things like having routines that are the same in both homes, or or just like the simple, you know, it was amazing. I didn't do it or didn't give the artist did such an amazing job of bringing the story to life and doing little things like having the same picture in the walls at the mom's house, and you see the same one at the dad's house or the same books on the bookshelf, the same bedspread on the, you know, so yes, it's about a little boy, but it's it could be any child. It doesn't have to, and it could be a child going to spend the night at his parents' house. It's just, it's meant to be a moment in time in this particular little child's life, but it is something that is universal to anyone who's going through this.

Kate Daly 12:03

But it's kind of it's teaching how to cope with change and and things that change. And that is a constant in life, isn't it? All of these changes, like you say, whether it's going away to school or whether it's going to grandparents or sleepovers, it's navigating those moments when you feel nervous and scared and when you're not sure what it's going to what you're going to find on the other side of the car drive. It's it's that that it speaks to so beautifully. And I think it also, from a parent's perspective, it actually is quite a big teaching moment. It teaches you how to deal with like when you're when your character, your main character, has a wobble, it teaches you how to deal with that in a really lovely, non-judgy kind of soft way. And I I that's what I liked about it. I thought as a as a reader, I could imagine you know, a child reading it and enjoying it and loving the pictures, but also as a parent, I think there was something in it for me too. And that's that's why I think is that's the mark of a special book, isn't it? Like you say, when the the both both readers, because there's always two readers, aren't there? If it's a picture book for a young child, both readers are getting something from it. It's like the best children's films are the ones that we like and laugh at, whereas we've all sat through those tedious ones that you think really it's an hour and a half, I'm not getting back in my life.

SPEAKER_01 13:19

That's the moments I'm never gonna have back. Yeah, I mean, I think that I also really want that moment. That's one of my favorite parts of the book, is when because I think that's so real. And I think it's real for both the child and the parent. Like I think about the moments I freak out when suddenly my son isn't here, or you know, or I just think about like the small things and those moments that just trigger that emotion, that huge emotion. And I think we're so quick to either want because we're so scared of hurting them, or because we feel guilty because we put them through this and it's not their choice, and we've made this choice that's impacting their life in this huge way. I sometimes think we feel guilty about I mean, at least from my experience, and I know I am not a professional, I do not have your background credentials, but like from my own personal experience, I felt a lot of guilt. And to try to fix that, I want to fix everything and just make it all per. And I think it's important to realize that sometimes things are gonna be messy and your emotions are gonna get out of control and you might get really sad. And that's okay. And the what needs to be the message that I want it to be is that you can get sad and you can feel like the world is falling apart around you, but there's love there. You just have to look for it. And it's, and you know, the hope, my hope, is that it's this idea that, you know, I think we all think, oh, you get divorced, a family split splits, and that means love's different and it's all smaller. And really, it's about the fact that love actually multiplies when you have this kind of it can, and if you look for it, there are ways to see that. And I think that was really my hope in that scene, too, was just that this moment of connection between the little boy Henry and his dad and and realizing that things do change.

Kate Daly 14:56

But it shows two people navigating a change, doesn't it? And that's really real. And that's what I think part of the appeal is that it's it's such a universal book. So one of the things I was thinking as I was reading it was it what a shame if the only people that ever buy this book or read this book are people who are getting divorced, because that's just a tiny part of the audience, isn't it? What I think you're doing with this book, and what I love about this book so much is you're normalizing this as a way of life. And that means everybody around people who are divorcing needs to be comfortable with this stuff. And it's, you know, in this country in the UK, a third of children have divorced parents. So that's like a third of a class, a third of a primary school class. So primary school teachers, counselors, therapists, you know, all of the other parents in a class who may be together still, that all this book has that universal appeal. And it wouldn't it be lovely if it wasn't just the divorcing community that read this picture book, but actually it was one of those books that grandparents could read and everybody could read and we could talk about how families come in all different shapes and sizes.

SPEAKER_01 16:05

Yes, absolutely. And and to take away, like you said, that stigma of it and to normalize it and and let them feel I just, you know, I don't want to feel like I'm should be ashamed of who I am because I'm not sitting checking all the boxes of whatever social driven, you know, and I don't want my son to. And I, you know, and and I don't know the statistics in the US offhand, but I know they're high. And I know it's been actually really interesting because we've recently moved and there's a far more larger number of divorced parents in my son's class now. And it's um been interesting to see because he feels like he can help in a way. He's like, well, they don't know mom, and I I want to help them because you know they're going through it now, and and and I didn't have anyone when I was going through it, but I can help them now, and I think that's great. And, you know, he's read the book with me many, many times. I make him read it often out loud if I have to do a reading because I get weepy and he can read it for me. But, you know, I do think it is universal and it does. And I think, you know, his counselors, I said to, you know, his counselors have it and it's important.

Kate Daly 17:07

Yeah, it is. And I think like you like, you know, like you were saying earlier, so much of what kids consume these days is the very kind of traditional happily ever after type reading in books and storylines. And you see more recently a much grittier, real kind of theme coming through around families lit different, people have different outcomes. It's not all kind of, you know, they all lived happily ever after anymore. We've we definitely have moved away from that. So I think this book really leans into this.

SPEAKER_01 17:39

Yes. Well, I think we need to show. I think I am a victim. I mean, I I love a good happily ever after romance, and I enjoy all of those things, but I think it's really important that we start to realize that happily ever after can come in so many different forms and that it doesn't have to be all tied up in a bow at the end of the book or at the end of the movie, and that there can be these moments and that life itself is difficult, and to pretend that it's not is a disservice to our children. It's a disservice to us as we try to navigate life post-divorce for me, like thinking that, you know, because I felt so much shame that I had failed and that I'd messed up and that I hadn't been able to figure it out and make it work, and that I'd let my child down and all of those things. And then I realized, you know, I think the other important thing is that I realized that happily ever after can be just my son and I and living our best lives and being free and happy and be able to deal with our emotions in a healthy way. And, you know, I think that so many times I think there's this weird, we don't, there's a lot of people now showing this nitty, like gritty, oh, the single mom has to be really strong and everything. She's working, you know, and life is really hard. And it is really hard. Being a single mother is no joke. But I also think some people tell me. So yeah. But sometimes it's also, oh, I have these moments that are just, I wouldn't trade them for the world and I wouldn't go back and change anything because I have these moments and I think all the hard work is important and it it is hard. It is so hard and it feels never-ending at times. But I think that it is a happily ever after in its own way, and that's okay. And I'm so I really I hope that we see more and more from the popular, you know, from places where that bring out the popular films and the TV shows that that it's okay to have just a mom or just a dad or yeah, you know, yeah.

Kate Daly 19:35

Exactly. And I think what I've really kind of enjoyed about this book as well is it's a conversation opener, isn't it? So I know I'm gonna ask you to share your top tips in a minute for parents who want to talk to their children about separation in an age-appropriate way. And that to me is the beauty of this book. It is the kind of start point. So I don't want to take a tip away from you that it says read my book. But you know, and I know nobody would want to miss that. But just before we go into that, if you're listening and this episode has given you a little bit of clarity or comfort or just a tip that's made things feel a little bit more manageable, then make sure to follow the divorce podcast on your favorite podcast. Don't forget, each week we're here with expert advice and real support and proper conversations to help you through your separation one step at a time. So, Elizabeth, what are your practical tips for parents who want to talk to their child about separation but don't know where to start?

SPEAKER_01 20:30

Well, start with reading first meditat. I think that the most my tip, and again, you know, this is again from my experience, but is just to be honest and realize that the kids are more aware than you think, and that it's okay to try to have. I mean, obviously it needs to be an age-appropriate conversation and a four-year-old versus a 14-year-old is going to handle things in a different way. But I think we need to remember that this wasn't the choice the child made. It is a choice we've made. And so to come to that with coming to it with this understanding that they've been taken, the control's been taken away from them, and we need to find ways to be on their level and speak to them and not speak down to them because I think that's unfair to them. I think they really do know more than they let on. And I think kind of just trying to feel out what makes a child feel comfortable in a home, and I think is really important because that's something that then you can try to bring into both homes if possible and to, or both, you know, if your child is with you and we're what and your grandparents or whomever they're with, find the ways that they find come seek comfort, whether it's a stuffy, whether it's a picture on a wall, and see it from their side that they, you know, and remember they want to protect you, I think. And I I always try to remember that it's our job. It's not their job to protect them, us, it's our job to protect them. And so, you know, being honest and open and and treating them with respect that I think they feel like has been taken away from them because they've not made this choice is a really important place to start.

Kate Daly 22:02

And the importance of modeling that it's you're okay when they're not there. I think that's really important. If you go around telling them that you were desperate without them and you miss them so much and all that, I think that can be counterproductive in some way.

SPEAKER_01 22:15

Absolutely.

Kate Daly 22:16

And it makes them feel like outside out of mind. But at the same time, right, you want to show them that you're capable of having a life which is outside of them and that you're happy when they're with their other parent. And I think that's what really helps them feel more settled with the other parent as well.

SPEAKER_01 22:30

Absolutely. Because then they also don't feel like you've been making a choice or that they're guilt, they're guilty for leaving guilty. Yeah, exactly. Because I think there's a lot of that fear like they've been abandoned or that you're they don't want to be abandoned again. And so they don't want to abandon you because it's changed. So I think it's a really important thing. And I I struggle, I mean, it's a struggle every day. I mean, I'm learning every day, and every day brings with it a new challenge and a new hurdle to overcome and uh, you know, a new comment. And because my child is getting older, and so he's viewing it in different ways now.

Kate Daly 23:00

And exactly, it's an ongoing conversation, isn't it? You'll have to write, you'll have to write another book as he grows up, won't you? You'll have to get to the teen and the adult version eventually. There you go. I've set you up for the next 20 years of of writing. Where can people find more about you, Elizabeth?

SPEAKER_01 23:15

You can find more about me at my website, elisbethrednick.com. And my book is in bookstores everywhere and is available online, I believe, shortly in the UK, if not already. And look for me and hopefully there'll be more books to come.

Kate Daly 23:29

Fabulous. And if you want some more general separation and co-parenting support, you can visit amicable.co.uk where you can explore our free resources or book a free advice consultation. We'll put all of Elizabeth's details in the show notes as well. So you can buy the book. And of course, you can find us on Instagram, me on LinkedIn, and you can hear about new podcast episodes by subscribing for updates and visiting the divorcepodcast.com or on your favourite listening platform. Now don't forget, we'd also love to know how we can help further. So please share questions on divorce, separation, or co-parenting with us at hello at amicable.co.uk. You can also join our subscription platform, Amicable Space, where you'll find our community forum. And that's a safe space to ask anything you want as you go through separation or co-parenting. Members get free access to our monthly QA webinars with Amicable's divorce specialists, and you can ask questions in real time. The link to sign up is in the episode description. Now, all that's left for me to say is thank you, Elizabeth. I really enjoyed that book. I cannot recommend it highly enough. It's beautifully written and beautifully illustrated. So thank you very much for joining us today, and thank you everybody for listening.